Ioncloud Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 I played cain for about 20 games yesterday and I think he is a well balanced powerful character. However, my main gripe with him is his ultimate. Its way too easy to avoid and when its avoided, all queued up damage is wasted. Its not like avoiding it is even intentional either. Teleports, vortex, cloaking, heck it seems like the missiles don't even hit shadow in shadow walk or when he is teleport/jumping attacking. Its completely useless against zeratul without detection since he is cloaked up far before you can queue up enough shots to kill him. Which brings me to my next point. The damage threshold for the unfreezing. Since it was so hit or miss on the ult, I just resorted to just firing on them to make sure that I could actually hit them but the freeze would break after 1 or 2 shots. So one of these has to be fixed. Another weird quirk I noticed that isn't really related to balance. Cain behaves strangely to the attack command. serveral times when freezing a target he ignores the target as if it wasn't there and walks up next to it even if you press A and click on the character or right click on it. It wasn't all the time, but enough to be frustrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qlx Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Oh the irony... You say he's balanced, yet you come here complaining about how easy his missiles are dodged & etc. Now if they weren't wouldn't that make him stronger, say - too powerful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoWaterJustIce Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Generally i see cains allies cc the target for him while he blasts at them so they cant dodge, but yes it is a very buggy ult and isnt reliable dmg wise. It has to do with projectiles and the sc2 engine i think and im not sure if it can be fixed :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
residente Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Lol is this thread serious or what. If its a bug that cloaks and blinks evade dat rockets then it shouldnt be fixed. Ironhide can towerdive because of that, tower will not aggro him. You can slow, your AAs deal insane dmg with that stacks. His early game is a nightmare for any low hp hero. His ult costs 15 mana lmao. Dat skill adds like 95 or its 135 dmg at lvl16? Do u imagine if you couldnt evade then? LOL Q 3.3 sec stun or so then press R+E and lol. Oh I had an idea: buy taser and the game will be for you. Baggins 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ioncloud Posted December 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Oh the irony... You say he's balanced, yet you come here complaining about how easy his missiles are dodged & etc. Now if they weren't wouldn't that make him stronger, say - too powerful? Well yes. I was considering some of the dodging partially broken or due to the way the system calculates damage to cloaked characters. ie it doesn't. But my point is it kind of makes the ult pointless if there is a very good chance your missiles will be dodged and the target survives vs going for the guaranteed damage of not using the ult. I do like the ult in beating opponents with crazy lifesteal, but pretty much all of them have an escape that causes the missiles to miss anyway. The point is, its not reliable damage and can cost you a team fight or the game because of I don't know your own zeratul voiding the battle causing everyone to move and the 8 stacks of missiles to be a waste of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FruitNinja Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Cain is probably one of the most balanced heroes in the game if it were not that almost any hero in the game has abilities that can dodge his missiles. You have to keep your opponent disabled while you ult. Freeze into taser could work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qlx Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Oh the irony... You say he's balanced, yet you come here complaining about how easy his missiles are dodged & etc. Now if they weren't wouldn't that make him stronger, say - too powerful? I will post that until you come up with a non contradict argument. Besides, Residente said everything significant. Cain tends to be one of the stronger heroes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firnefex Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 If you cannot avoid his ulti, noone could ever survive that burst. Also his Attack Speed buff is devastating... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mus Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Why not increase the energy cost of Cain's ulti and then make it able to hit targets who tele (mainly talking about Shadow and his stepping strikes)? I don't think the ulti should be able to hit units that cloak or vortex though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itsthatguy Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 I have so many problems with cain, where his [Q] ability with a 3.3 second stun is enough to get a good 8 missiles out and kill me doin about 2500 damage. He uncasts final about 0.3 seconds before freeze ends so IM DOOMED!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qlx Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 I do not see this thread conduct to any interesting suggestion. As you said, he's fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ioncloud Posted December 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 I do not see this thread conduct to any interesting suggestion. As you said, he's fine. Let me rephrase it since it obviously is too much to handle. He is a good character against most non-teleporting, cloaking, vortexing, or otherwise any hero that causes people to move, which is half or less of heroes. I wouldn't mind the cloaking or vortex causing the missiles to miss heck even the jumping away at the last second causing them to miss just like raynor. What would be a constructive change would be to increase the mana cost of the ult, remove the damage threshold of the freeze, and keep missiles tracked on to people after they are moved by teleport or vortex or pull. Otherwise using the ult can be pointless when the person is moved or jumps or something else influences the fight and you are standing there with your pants down and your dick hanging out because now they are full health and all the damage you queued up was wasted. I don't think any other hero has the problem of that. Suppose Cyprus' ult only damaged people 20% of the time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyght Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 I don't think making it unevadable is the answer, but shap EVERYTHING doges his ult, its so frustrating, i don't think if someone cloaks they just shouldnt hit him... I can understand like teles and stuff like that, but even zera planar dodges it, shadows shade dodges, flobing everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divinesashi Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Cain is fine. There needs to be ways to avoid his ulti or another "Boros OP" thread will pop up everywhere, except it wil be Cain this time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysi Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Made a Cain RQ cause I would always planar my allies at least 30 times as Zeratul after he had a whole shap ton of rockets stacked up on them lmao. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 late game i dont even use R with cain. Just freeze and unleash super fast attacks = dead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qlx Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 I get your point a little better now, you want it to hit at a higher probability but with less damage? Alright, I get that. But seriously, Cain has good other skills making him (as residente said) a nightmare for squishies. So, if you know your ultimate will get dodged, why use it after all? It's not like you'd have to rely on your ultimate 100%. Anyway, versus those that cannon avoid the missiles, they hit very hard. Hard enough to make up for the uselessness on those that can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRipley Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 dont see a reason for any hero to be able to kill any hero. rock/paper/scissors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamantium Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 Cain is fine, you just have to know when to use it and what counters it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rem Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 I do tend to wish cloaking didnt cancel it though. I get the teleports and stuff, but cloakings just annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lOvOl Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 Use Warp Shard/SHC to close the distance, then when target gets outside of firing range release before they can do something to dispel the damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostEU Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 Sad thing is all they have to do is watch what you are doing and if you release, just press a blink type or cloak type item/spell to avoid all your projectiles (regardles of if you have Elixir/Scan or not) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qlx Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 Sad thing is if it would hit regardless of cloak, there would be another thread called Ironhide.Cain OP. It's all said... He's fine. Besides, that'd mean his missiles were like dustin's missiles, and i don't know if it is possible to make them hit cloaked units & not hit teleported units. If they change anything i hope it means that his damage on missiles is nerfed a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sciifighter Posted December 25, 2012 Report Share Posted December 25, 2012 late game i dont even use R with cain. Just freeze and unleash super fast attacks = dead Just lol... So sad... Really gtfo! U must be a real god! Or wait u play against bots? And dont need ur ult? Really lol.... To topic: Cain is well balanced. U just need to use every skill right. Its like baiting a void or a port, the then use ur ult after, and stuff. Its not about items, its just about knowledge and prediction. Therefor noobs wont get that good with him, coz they dont use everything he gives. Hes my most loved champ. He is the best :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom Posted December 26, 2012 Report Share Posted December 26, 2012 Taser: solving problems since implementation, more efficiently and better than anything before or since, with the possible exceptions of Shadowmourne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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