Stop becoming LoL

[scIIbebop]

I have been playing SotiS/AoS since close to it's beginning on SC2. When it started it was modeled more after old AoS or DotA, but there have been a lot of changes that have made it more and more like LoL. A few changes that I disagree with or feel should be made are:

 

- NO MORE TALENTS. Talents are a crutch to begin with and are also part of what is making AGI heroes so strong right now. AGI carries are supposed to be strong late if they get farm, but right now they can be both sustainable and lethal from the beginning of the game with the right talents. The active talents such as sprint also benefit these heros far more than INT. Bottom line is that talents remove built-in hero deficiencies and counter the balance the devs tried to give heroes.

 

- NO COOLDOWN REDUCTION/TIMESCALE. Give lower cooldowns if they are needed and higher ones if needed. Again, cooldown reduction breaks the game by countering the built-in balance between the cooldowns of the heroes. and is what makes Prelate or Boros so strong since they can ulti every 20sec with a Masamune/HoM/whatever.

 

These are 2 big ones. I'll add more later

[scIIbebop]

Picking back up:

 

- BRING BACK BOOTS. This one sort of goes with the no talents suggestion. Boot choice was an important decision in defining the role and style you were playing your hero, especially early-game. This early tech function of boots has essentially been given to you for free with the talent system, but I feel like having boots is a much better system for providing these benefits than the talents.

 

- NERF LEECH. Leech needs to be cut in half at least. This is probably the biggest factor that makes AGI so strong. They are un-harassable since they just leech back full life in 5 sec. Then just make barbed an active ability again and make schrapnel cloak a targeted ability to balance those.

 

- DAMAGE TIMER ON BLINK. Taking damage should add cooldown to warp shard. Keeping the hadron collider how it is may be a viable advantage to investing in the upgraded blink, but as is warp shard is crazy strong. The best 1750 investment you can make for so many heroes. This is a change that would add back to the balance for AA heroes.

 

- RAISE lvl CAP. Bringing the lvl cap back up to 25 and breaking up the stats into 10 sets of 2 would be another change to help emphasize lvls instead of just gear.

 

- LOSE MONEY ON DEATH. The lack of death penalty is yet another factor that plays into the favor of gear dependent heroes. Currently I don't feel like this would make a huge impact since almost every hero is gear dependent. But if the cooldown reduction was removed and lvl cap was raised again so that exp could be more valuable to casters than stacking items then this could become a viable change.

 

Thats what I can think of for now. I may add more, but there is a lot to talk about here as is.

[FruitNinja]

I have been playing SotiS/AoS since close to it's beginning on SC2. When it started it was modeled more after old AoS or DotA, but there have been a lot of changes that have made it more and more like LoL. A few changes that I disagree with or feel should be made are:

 

So is it bad because you don't like LoL or bad because you don't like the changes?

 

If the problem is the former then stop complaining about LoL, it has nothing to do with this--the changes do on a case-by-case basis. LoL is run by a team of game designers that try to make a fun game for everyone. DotA 2 is largely marketed toward DotA fans tbh. They are not the same thing, and AoS should never be meant to be based on either.

 

- NO MORE TALENTS. Talents are a crutch to begin with and are also part of what is making AGI heroes so strong right now.

 

None of the talents that benefit AGI heroes the most actually scale into lategame. +15 weapon damage? That's like 450 minerals. 15% weapon speed? AGI makes weapon speed obsolete. Veteran? Worthless at level 18. Haste? Benefits AGI heroes the most early game but can be used on everyone, but weapon speed falls off once you hit the cap so it's better late-game on offtanks like balrog who aren't going to be hitting the cap often. 9% lifesteal? The cheapest lifesteal item gives more...

 

5% Spell Damage, on the other hand, ACTUALLY SCALES late-game.

 

AGI carries are supposed to be strong late if they get farm, but right now they can be both sustainable and lethal from the beginning of the game with the right talents. The active talents such as sprint also benefit these heros far more than INT. Bottom line is that talents remove built-in hero deficiencies and counter the balance the devs tried to give heroes.

 

I agree that talents are too effective for covering up the early-game of heroes that otherwise don't have one. However, I think this can be solved with better utility talents and by removing the lifesteal talent in favor of something like a +30% INT extra spell damage on a spell every ~4 seconds, affected by CDR.

 

- NO COOLDOWN REDUCTION/TIMESCALE. Give lower cooldowns if they are needed and higher ones if needed. Again, cooldown reduction breaks the game by countering the built-in balance between the cooldowns of the heroes. and is what makes Prelate or Boros so strong since they can ulti every 20sec with a Masamune/HoM/whatever.

 

CDR is directed toward casters who are fully reliant on spells to deal damage. It will never benefit AA heroes more because abilities are not a primary source of damage for AA heroes. Tassadar is an exception, but if you have too much CDR it actually lowers your DPS (I can explain but that's irrelevant).

 

Boros' ult cannot crit and doesn't do that much damage anymore. Casters have tools such as gravity edge and yamato to help kill a boros in seconds.

Zeratul is just broken by design, imo, but that's a separate discussion.

 

- BRING BACK BOOTS. This one sort of goes with the no talents suggestion. Boot choice was an important decision in defining the role and style you were playing your hero, especially early-game. This early tech function of boots has essentially been given to you for free with the talent system, but I feel like having boots is a much better system for providing these benefits than the talents.

 

Let's add boot enchantments too while we're at it.

 

- NERF LEECH. Leech needs to be cut in half at least. This is probably the biggest factor that makes AGI so strong. They are un-harassable since they just leech back full life in 5 sec. Then just make barbed an active ability again and make schrapnel cloak a targeted ability to balance those.

 

You mean make it more like LoL? :P Leech is hardly as powerful in LoL with items such as Morellonomicon and Executioner's Calling. Everyone can have ignite, too.

 

- DAMAGE TIMER ON BLINK. Taking damage should add cooldown to warp shard. Keeping the hadron collider how it is may be a viable advantage to investing in the upgraded blink, but as is warp shard is crazy strong. The best 1750 investment you can make for so many heroes. This is a change that would add back to the balance for AA heroes.

 

You mean nerfing the only purchasable escape on most casters so that it is no longer an escape?

 

- RAISE lvl CAP. Bringing the lvl cap back up to 25 and breaking up the stats into 10 sets of 2 would be another change to help emphasize lvls instead of just gear.

 

Thus allowing fed carries to maintain their lead forever, making an early-game snowball completely remove any chance of a comeback late-game?

 

- LOSE MONEY ON DEATH. The lack of death penalty is yet another factor that plays into the favor of gear dependent heroes. Currently I don't feel like this would make a huge impact since almost every hero is gear dependent. But if the cooldown reduction was removed and lvl cap was raised again so that exp could be more valuable to casters than stacking items then this could become a viable change.

 

Because, you know, teamfights don't revolve around protecting the carry and sacrificing tanks in order to keep the carry safe. Who's going to hurt the most from this change? Non-carries...

[Sciifighter]

Well actually fruitninja said everything important... Close? xD

[residente]

So if you want this game as a copy of Defense of the Ancients, why you don't suggest remove attribute scaling from skills? Ah and add also an animal curier, becuase if we remove talents, the laning phase will be a nightmare unless we have a cute donkey giving us potions.

[Sciifighter]

Actually no one wants lol or dota? :~| everyone wants aos!!!!

[scIIbebop]

Firstly, I am not saying SotIS should be DotA, but it should take some inspiration from it. DotA is the best developed and most proven MOBA there is, period. So, it seems natural to look at some of their decision making when looking at SotIS's development. Or I guess I should say AoS, still seems weird to say that though.

 

None of the talents that benefit AGI heroes the most actually scale into lategame. +15 weapon damage? That's like 450 minerals. 15% weapon speed? AGI makes weapon speed obsolete. Veteran? Worthless at level 18. Haste? Benefits AGI heroes the most but can be used on everyone. 9% lifesteal? The cheapest lifesteal item gives more...

 

5% Spell Damage, on the other hand, ACTUALLY SCALES late-game.

 

1000 spell damage x 1.05 = 1050 spell damage. 500dps x .09 = 45hp/sec

Regardless I am talking about talents as a huge early buff for AA when they need it most. Late, no talents matter aside from the actives but AA is stronger late anyway. Also, while anyone can use haste, the 3 talents used to get to haste aren't a good choice for casters.

 

CDR is directed toward casters who are fully reliant on spells to deal damage. It will never benefit AA heroes more because abilities are not a primary source of damage for AA heroes. Tassadar is an exception, but if you have too much CDR it actually lowers your DPS (I can explain but that's irrelevant).

 

Then lower the cooldowns of casters skills. Have you ever seen a Prelate go through a team w/o ult and ring or a shadow w/o shade, vortex at least, or nova w/o cloak, ult. Cooldown reduction benefits AA at least as much, and some of the best items for it like HoM or Masamune are basically AA only.

 

Thus allowing fed carries to maintain their lead forever, making an early-game snowball completely remove any chance of a comeback late-game?

 

These changes would reduce snowballs by making AA caries less self-sustainable and more reliant on team support, as it should be in a MOBA.

 

You mean nerfing the only purchasable escape on most casters so that it is no longer an escape?

 

Still escape method, you just have to be more heads up use it before you get hit. I don't hink it is broken solely as a gank escape, but it is broken because it allows people to escape from fights they have committed to too easily. Also, it is not the only escape; there is impact dial, or parallax, or smoke, or teammates helping you and if thats not enough then you die. Also, if warps were brought back that would give another way to get out of lane and avoid ganks. I didn't mention this, but I would be in favor of bringing back warps and side-shops too.

 

Because, you know, teamfights don't revolve around protecting the carry and sacrificing tanks in order to keep the carry safe. Who's going to hurt the most from this change? Non-carries...

 

Yes. It would make it harder for non-carries to stack items and it would lead to more defined roles and emphasize the importance of keeping you carry alive. Still with the other changes, such as lvl cap, I am suggesting removing some of the emphasis of gear stacking and emphasizing good team play more which would allow supports to still be efective w/o having to keep up in farm.

 

So if you want this game as a copy of Defense of the Ancients, why you don't suggest remove attribute scaling from skills? Ah and add also an animal curier, becuase if we remove talents, the laning phase will be a nightmare unless we have a cute donkey giving us potions.

 

Attribute scaling and spell resist would have to go together, but I don't feel like that is so much of a problem area. Also, one of the main reasons why couriers are needed in DotA is because the map is like twice as big. Also, the courier is rarely used for potions, just items. Buying consumables at the start is more necessary though.

[Harvest]

pretty much, everybody who is bi tching is saying "dont go in the direction of LOL, go in the direction of DOTA".

[FruitNinja]

1000 spell damage x 1.05 = 1050 spell damage. 500dps x .09 = 45hp/sec

 

I think the spell damage talent should be buffed. But it scales, whereas leech is more easily acquired through items and is thus insignificant late-game when you actually have your items. 15% weapon speed is a 1000 mineral item. 9% leech is worth 400.

 

Also, 5%+20%+25% from argus/yamato adds up. Apply derpa amp, Dustin amp, raynor amp, etc and it makes a difference.

 

Regardless I am talking about talents as a huge early buff for AA when they need it most. Late, no talents matter aside from the actives but AA is stronger late anyway. Also, while anyone can use haste, the 3 talents used to get to haste aren't a good choice for casters.

 

Demigod is great for last hitting on anyone. Veteran is great for casters since they have good level scalings on their spells. Weapon damage still helps with poking (most casters have long AA ranges) and last-hitting.

 

Talents are an early-game buff for everyone, not just AGI heroes. AA heroes still get countered early game by the armor talent and have low damage output early on.

 

Then lower the cooldowns of casters skills. Have you ever seen a Prelate go through a team w/o ult and ring or a shadow w/o shade, vortex at least, or nova w/o cloak, ult. Cooldown reduction benefits AA at least as much, and some of the best items for it like HoM or Masamune are basically AA only.

 

I saw a cyprus with masamune kite like crazy once. He blinked every 3 seconds and walked at the speed of light.

Buy yamato + mantle + chilling and you will not have problems with cooldowns.

 

CDR as a mechanic allows you to build for either more sustained damage throughout fights or heavy burst damage. Casters should NOT have sustained burst.

 

These changes would reduce snowballs by making AA caries less self-sustainable and more reliant on team support, as it should be in a MOBA.

 

Because that nova can totally stand a chance against 3 shrapnel cloaks, 2 tasers, and Tassadar trying to swap her every chance he gets, without his team.

 

Still escape method, you just have to be more heads up use it before you get hit. I don't hink it is broken solely as a gank escape, but it is broken because it allows people to escape from fights they have committed to too easily. Also, it is not the only escape; there is impact dial, or parallax, or smoke, or teammates helping you and if thats not enough then you die. Also, if warps were brought back that would give another way to get out of lane and avoid ganks. I didn't mention this, but I would be in favor of bringing back warps and side-shops too.

 

Except that AA carries have escapes that work regardless of whether or not they get attacked. Warp shard is all casters get without building a tank item.

 

Your point about people having to be punished for overcommiting is ungrounded without some justification. You can't just argue that people have to be punished for overextending because they are overextending.

Having an escape ALLOWS for risky gameplay and baiting tactics. You have to plan around that and expect what they do not expect you to expect.

 

Yes. It would make it harder for non-carries to stack items and it would lead to more defined roles and emphasize the importance of keeping you carry alive. Still with the other changes, such as lvl cap, I am suggesting removing some of the emphasis of gear stacking and emphasizing good team play more which would allow supports to still be efective w/o having to keep up in farm.

 

The problem is that snowballing becomes ridiculous with this. Lose a teamfight? You are now farther from getting that taser you desperately need than before. This just serves to make carries even more powerful early-mid game because they will have more gold when played correctly, and raising the level cap allows the winning team to maintain their snowball from before.

[doxthefox]

AoS cant become LoL because that requires balance. Amirite!!!

[Takeray]

AoS cant become LoL because that requires balance. Amirite!!!

 

Balance: People crying about what they are flobed. Same goes for Lol, same goes for AoS.

[NoWaterJustIce]

Boros' ult cannot crit and doesn't do that much damage anymore.

 

Just throwing it out there but boros can and does crit on his ulti and it does the most dmg of any skill in the game with a full item build other than maybe leo ult :P

 

(Total dmg being 800(+800%weapon dmg)(+400%int))

[pchacker]

Just throwing it out there but boros can and does crit on his ulti and it does the most dmg of any skill in the game with a full item build other than maybe leo ult :P

 

(Total dmg being 800(+800%weapon dmg)(+400%int))

 

^ was gonna say this.

 

Also he is invincible during the ult as well

[FruitNinja]

800 base physical damage, 800% weapon damage (also physical), is pretty little considering that:

-It's spread out over multiple targets unless you literally set yourself up for it.

-Boros can do more autoattacks in the same timespan

 

As for the invincibility--he faceplants directly into your team directly after, so if he doesn't save his spellstorm he is pretty much dead.

 

I guess the crits can hurt, I still think crits should be physical damage again.

[Rem]

If they make crits physical they need to totally rework armor

[GhostEU]

I think the spell damage talent should be buffed. But it scales, whereas leech is more easily acquired through items and is thus insignificant late-game when you actually have your items. 15% weapon speed is a 1000 mineral item. 9% leech is worth 400.

 

Also, 5%+20%+25% from argus/yamato adds up. Apply derpa amp, Dustin amp, raynor amp, etc and it makes a difference.

 

 

That's like saying Leech doesn't stack whilst spell damage does.

Both stack and 9% leech on top of whatever items you have does make a big difference

 

Also the cheapest leech item has 3%

[Aellectris]

Oh really? DotA has the best MOBA, period?

 

Take a look: http://majorleagueof...infographic.png

 

Also, you're not great at the game - I've seen you in pubs before. Master the present version before you whine about it.

 

@Quistmann: I think Whale and I calculated Leo as dealing around 12k% of his INT lategame.

[doxthefox]

Technically the two dudes from dota2/lol are part of the same team from the original dota so that chart is like a tree branch from dota who is like the seed that sprouted all of this madness. When i first saw that chart i was amazed by the stats too though. Lol is just marketed so well and maybe dota2 can get up there too upon release...in 2020.

[BestPlayer]

Oh really? DotA has the best MOBA, period?

 

Take a look: http://majorleagueof...infographic.png

 

Not relewant. LoL is a kasual game marketed towards the general publik, is wery, wery mainstream in terms of "gaming" and a game hawing a lot of players doesn't make it the "best" game, as "Best" in this kontekst will always be entirely subjektiwe.

 

I think DotA is better than LoL bekause it is a mush more intrikate game, with a lot more different strategies, mekaniks and owerall diffikulty.

You may think LoL is better than DotA bekause you like games they are fairly easy to pik up and learn, whish is sertainly one of LoLs greatest ashiewements.

 

Also LoL is free to play, DotA is still in beta, and requires a key to play.

DotA still has many more indiwudually sponsored tournaments than LoL, is to Shina what Starkraft is to Korea, and also isn't a kasual game for kasual players.

 

@OP

I agree with mush of what you said in this thread, it's too bad majority of players are simply either too bad, or too dumb to understand that making the game like LoL is not nessesarily a good or bad thing, and refuse to hawe their own opinion on many, many subjekts.

[BestPlayer]

So is it bad because you don't like LoL or bad because you don't like the changes?

 

If the problem is the former then stop complaining about LoL, it has nothing to do with this--the changes do on a case-by-case basis. LoL is run by a team of game designers that try to make a fun game for everyone. DotA 2 is largely marketed toward DotA fans tbh. They are not the same thing, and AoS should never be meant to be based on either.

Any A-RTS game is "based" on Aeon of Strife, whish DotA deriwes from, whish HoN and LoL deriwe from, whish AoS deriwe from. Useless komment.

 

 

 

None of the talents that benefit AGI heroes the most actually scale into lategame. +15 weapon damage? That's like 450 minerals. 15% weapon speed? AGI makes weapon speed obsolete. Veteran? Worthless at level 18. Haste? Benefits AGI heroes the most early game but can be used on everyone, but weapon speed falls off once you hit the cap so it's better late-game on offtanks like balrog who aren't going to be hitting the cap often. 9% lifesteal? The cheapest lifesteal item gives more...

What an insane argument. 15% weapon is SUPER STRONG before you hit the kap, 15 weapon damage is a TON earlygame. Haste is GREAT for early eskaping and killing. 9% FREE lifesteal is BIG ALL GAME LONG.

 

You display a fundamental lak of understanding. Talents ARE NOT MEANT TO SKALE INTO THE LATEGAME, bekause LATEGAME DEPENDS ON ITEMS - you set your talents up for the EARLYGAME so you kan GET THOSE ITEMS.

All the talents you'we mentioned are FUKING STRONG earlygame, the stage of the game where the AA heroes are meant to be the weakest.

 

5% Spell Damage, on the other hand, ACTUALLY SCALES late-game.

You're making me laugh.

 

 

 

I agree that talents are too effective for covering up the early-game of heroes that otherwise don't have one. However, I think this can be solved with better utility talents and by removing the lifesteal talent in favor of something like a +30% INT extra spell damage on a spell every ~4 seconds, affected by CDR.

How?? How does that help anything at all? The "heroes that otherwise don't have one" are not being nerfed by this, merely another sektion being buffed. It brings my mind to the whole insane way of balansing this had plagued this game for a long, long time now - when something is owerpowered the answer apparently isn't to nerf it, it is to buff something else.

 

 

 

CDR is directed toward casters who are fully reliant on spells to deal damage. It will never benefit AA heroes more because abilities are not a primary source of damage for AA heroes. Tassadar is an exception, but if you have too much CDR it actually lowers your DPS (I can explain but that's irrelevant).

 

Boros' ult cannot crit and doesn't do that much damage anymore. Casters have tools such as gravity edge and yamato to help kill a boros in seconds.

Zeratul is just broken by design, imo, but that's a separate discussion.

BUT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND HIS POINT.

Kooldown-Reduktion will ALWAYS break the game, bekause the game is BALANSED AROUND THE ORIGINAL SET KOOLDOWNS OF SPELLS.

When Eko or RedHydra are looking at Ghost Snipe do u think they are saying "Yeah, this kooldown seems about right" OR "Hmm, this kooldown is a little too long, so it would be balansed when he gets some kooldown reduktion item."

 

 

@ Boros/Prelate: Irrelewant to the point of kooldown reduktion, besides being straight wrong.

 

 

 

Let's add boot enchantments too while we're at it.

???

 

 

 

You mean make it more like LoL? :P Leech is hardly as powerful in LoL with items such as Morellonomicon and Executioner's Calling. Everyone can have ignite, too.

? Feel free to argue his point rather than say "LOL U DIDNT WANT LOL NOW U WANT LOL HAHA"

 

 

 

You mean nerfing the only purchasable escape on most casters so that it is no longer an escape?

Besides there being other eskapes, as mentioned, Warp Fragment(I think it was kalled) used to hawe the same "Kant use if damage taken in set amount of time" as it did in DotA, and was used all the time. I guess players get stupider so now they need get-out-of-jail-free-kards that noone needed prewiously. It would still be easy to eskape, you would just hawe to aktually think about what you're doing instead being taking a terrible position and then saying "LOL I GOT BLINK, FUKER" and blinking away.

 

 

Thus allowing fed carries to maintain their lead forever, making an early-game snowball completely remove any chance of a comeback late-game?

 

Because, you know, teamfights don't revolve around protecting the carry and sacrificing tanks in order to keep the carry safe. Who's going to hurt the most from this change? Non-carries...

@Point 1

No, let me dish some knowledge on you, kid.

Raising the lewel kap ekstends the early- and midgame.

Ekstending the early- and midgame means it takes longer for AA heroes who require high lewel and high farm to bekome strong.

Ekstending the early- and midgame means that heroes, like kasters, who usually shine the most in those parts of the game, bekome stronger.

 

It aktually means the opposite of what you think it means.

 

 

@Point 2

Eh no, this rewert (as it used to be like this, whish u probably don't know, 5.0 spawn) would kause a kompletely shanged metagame where karries kan't juts suiside farm, kan't just do whatewer they please - and gankers aktually get rewarded substantially for doing what they're doing. I would write a whole list of things here, but in the end it serwes no purpose as apparently u feel "LOSE MONEY ON DEATH" would be most relewant when talking teamfights(????????????) when that is klearly not the kase.

 

AT THE END OF TEH DAY

The shanges that hawe happened to AoS sinse basikally 4.0 hawe made the game for assesible, more noob-friendly, and more kasual. Either you like it or you don't - but the game still has tons of players on starkraft, and an inhouse kommunity, so apparently some people do indeed like it.

I am not one of those people, so I don't play the game a lot anymore. I used to, but it is no longer a game for a person like me.

 

EDIT:

 

Except that AA carries have escapes that work regardless of whether or not they get attacked. Warp shard is all casters get without building a tank item.

 

Your point about people having to be punished for overcommiting is ungrounded without some justification. You can't just argue that people have to be punished for overextending because they are overextending.

Having an escape ALLOWS for risky gameplay and baiting tactics. You have to plan around that and expect what they do not expect you to expect.

 

Okay, I'm just going to single this out.

This is a perfekt eksample of the type of person, in this kase FruitNinja, who doesn't mind the shanges, and someone like me who does.

 

I think, bekause I'm not bad at the game, and I don't want to play with, or need to inklude, bad players in my games, that if you owerekstend or do something stupid, you should indeed get punished.

I also inwite you to think about what "owerekstending" means, and why, or why not, it should be punished by the enemy.

I also inwite you to think on words like "risky" and "baiting" and what they mean in this kontekst. You use these words, but it appears you are not sure how to apply them.

 

People SHOULD be punished for owerekstending, BEKAUSE THAT IS WHAT OWEREKSTENDING IS. You EKSTEND TOO FAR(SO YOU GET PUNISHED).

 

Hawing the get-out-of-jail-free-kard blink does not mean you are more or less able to owerekstend, it just enables you to not die from it, and other mistakes, as often. Maybe you think that's good - I don't; a perfekt eksample of a person who likes the shanges, and someone who doesn't.

I don't need the game to be owerly forgiwing, if I make a mistake I want to die for it, I don't need this eksessiwe handholding and noob-friendlyness.

People who like that like the shanges, people who don't, don't.

 

Merry khristmas to all btw, happy new years

[TungVu]

too long, don't read.

[BestPlayer]

too long, don't read.

 

ban this flobing noob flamer

[doxthefox]

Soede needs to make his own book. I wouldn't read it because it would be written in g and i only speak English but when they translate it you know ill be bored one day and be looking for a laugh. Of course i will criticize every single detail and turning the entire book into a gayer story than the premise of brokeback mountain. Then when people call me out ill turn around and backstab soede somehow faster than a zeratul in his time bubble when i call him a homophob. I hope you're ready to be hated by the straight and gay community.

[BestPlayer]

Doesn't change the fact that I'm right:

There is little to no argument as to why the changes are for the better. They make the game more accessible, which is a positive, they make the game more forgiving and noob-friendly, which may or may not be positive depending on who you are - one thing they don't, however, is make the game better, worse or more fun, objectively. They simply change the style of the game to become more casual.

 

The argument against, for example, losing gold upon death was something like "It's not fair, cause I get killed because I made a mistake, isn't that punishment enough? I don't need to lose money too" Some will agree, some will not, but it is not an argument, it is an opinion.

 

Like AppleNinja here, his whole point is about how he likes changes, or personally agree with them. He provides no arguments as to how they improved the gaming experience as a whole, because he has none. He simply has his opinion that he likes it how it is - maybe he didn't play it before, maybe he did and was having problems, so he likes it more now; doesn't matter.

 

I like my single player games enjoyable, and the difficulty I play on will vary on my mood on any given day, although I never play on easy.

My multiplayer games I find the most enjoyable when they depend as much as possible on my skill, and the more skill I feel what I'm doing requires, the happier I get, and the more fun I'm having. I can see myself improve in a very skill-based game, and how I can improve further. I don't want handholding or noob-friendliness, I want difficulty so I can overcome it and become significantly better than when I started.

 

For me that's why the game started going south after 5.0 when it become much more of an AoE clusterflob than previously, and generally it felt as though the game requires much, much less skill. Revolution brought it up in another thread, about how he feels the skill gap between High and Low in NA isn't that great. It's pretty obvious why: It's hard to be "Great" at this game. It's simple to be average, fairly simple to be above average and quite simple to be good - but "Great"? Nobody is great anymore, because everyone plays the same way, because there is only one way to play. Nobody is great because nobody needs to be great to be good.

The game is overly forgiving, so players aren't pressured to improve. Even in inhouse you can flob up royally but it doesn't matter, as you'll pick up your items eventually, and those 10 deaths? Pfft it doesn't matter.

If a multiplayer game doesn't demand of the player to put in significant effort, so a big difference is between an above average and a good player, then it just becomes boring (to me) and extremely flobing hard to care about improving.

[StarDuck]

pretty much, everybody who is bi tching is saying "dont go in the direction of LOL, go in the direction of DOTA".

Don't go in the direction of LoL or DotA, go in the direction of AoS.