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[1.66] Rancor and wards


FruitNinja
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Does anyone else feel that Tiberius.Rancor makes warding extremely impractical?

  • His scan is free, so he can destroy your wards at no cost.
  • His passive also allows him to buy boundary scanners at reduced cost.
  • He is also long-ranged, making him generally safe in teamfights when he does buy truesight.

I think that his scan should ignore structures, since he also contributes to Jakk and Queen's lack of usefulness. If a rancor wants to easily clear wards, he should buy boundary scanners like everyone else. He has an advantage there, too, because of his passive.

 

Toning down the detection in this game would help some of the heroes that rely on it.

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I must disagree with this post.

 

Scan is a skill slot of rancor. He should not need to "buy boundary scan like everybody else" because his Scan takes up a whole skill slot (you have total of 4 skills per hero). If you start calling Scan an OP ability because you can detect wards, so many other implications can be made here: his scan shouldnt detect zera cloak? Other rancor cloak? Smoke bomb? Shadow ulti??? Where do you think a line should be drawn?

 

Scan is fine as is since it takes up an important hero skill slot. Scan is an unique skill that no other hero has in the game. What's wrong with it detecting fog of war and invisible unit/structure, which it is designed to do...

 

Scan would be considered OP if it slowed movement speed of affected targets. Now that would be awesome (old Nuke style)

 

Lastly, scan CD is quite long... Until you get to level 4 scan which means you are level 14 and approaching end game. Most teams have elixir by this point

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@FruitNinja:

I agree, but keep in mind: Rancor's scan has utility aside from detection, and is one of Rancor's main abilities-- for Jakk's W mines and Queen's E tumors they're all skills, I don't see the problem here-- all skills of utility with long cooldown.

 

On the other hand, Jakk's R mines? I disagree that those should be revealed... =x

 

And the same could be said of Dustin's Heroic Passive, no? It reveals exactly where Jakk's W mines are and... well for Queen's tumors we got creep so *shrug*...

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Huh? There is a counter to wards on a particular hero? Wow, that is sooooooooooooooo imbalanced. What is even more imbalanced is Rancor can essentially buy wards at half the cost as he gets half the money back from using them.

 

Seriously, providing map awareness and countering map awareness on the enemy team is part of Rancor's job which is why Eye of Duran is my first item on him. Rancor should never ever get ganked himself unless he is forced to support dumb allies who make bad decisions in spite of all the map awareness he provides for his team (and yah I will usually go down with the ship rather than simply try and save my own butt in games even though that is obviously not the norm in pub games).

 

I know a lot of people think Rancor's job is to pack as much int on him as possible and just snipe and nuke heroes all game long with less than 50 farm on him, but I think that is a terrrrrrrible way to play him because though he has assassin capabilities, he is not an assassin hero. He can clear lanes with nukes from afar or near to stop a push (which of course also is his primary method of farming since you don't want him exposed or have the enemy know where he is) and since he does not take a lot of active micromanagement, he can use eye of duran, scans, and wards to be the overseer for the rest of the team in terms of figuring out who needs help and where the enemy team's gank squad always happens to be. And if the enemy team pushes 5 men up the middle, well nukes can be very punishing to teams that are so foolish to do that.

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I don't get it, people keep complaining about how stealth is useless, but then they defend rancor because "it's his role." Yes, and if it's v4 Toxi's role to break the game, that's perfectly fine, yes?

 

No, rancor shouldnt buy scanner because he has his W. Other heros are forced to buy scanner but they have usefull skills on their W.

 

Its part of rancor's role to ward and deward

 

But there is absolutely no reason to ward objectives when there's a rancor on the enemy team because it's wasted money.

 

So far your argument is just "it's that way because it's his role."

 

That's a stupid argument.

 

 

What I'm trying to say is that rancor can kill wards for completely free. Yes, it takes up one of his skills, but his kit is designed so that he's still a powerful mage. Balrog barely has an ult, yet he's a very strong hero. Raynor has only three skills, yet he's one of the most powerful casters in the game.

 

However rancor, while a powerful mage, is also capable of making wards almost completely useless unless the rancor is an idiot. Wards are a part of the game that rancor simply breaks.

 

Why does rancor have the ability to detect for free when everyone else must buy items to do the same thing? I'm not saying scan is OP (shame on you Divine for assuming that), I'm asking why you should ever ward when there is a rancor on the enemy team that just clears them all the time.

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I don't get it, people keep complaining about how stealth is useless, but then they defend rancor because "it's his role." Yes, and if it's v4 Toxi's role to break the game, that's perfectly fine, yes?

 

 

 

But there is absolutely no reason to ward objectives when there's a rancor on the enemy team because it's wasted money.

 

So far your argument is just "it's that way because it's his role."

 

That's a stupid argument.

 

 

What I'm trying to say is that rancor can kill wards for completely free. Yes, it takes up one of his skills, but his kit is designed so that he's still a powerful mage. Balrog barely has an ult, yet he's a very strong hero. Raynor has only three skills, yet he's one of the most powerful casters in the game.

 

However rancor, while a powerful mage, is also capable of making wards almost completely useless unless the rancor is an idiot. Wards are a part of the game that rancor simply breaks.

 

Why does rancor have the ability to detect for free when everyone else must buy items to do the same thing? I'm not saying scan is OP (shame on you Divine for assuming that), I'm asking why you should ever ward when there is a rancor on the enemy team that just clears them all the time.

 

When I have a decent rancor in the other team, I ward the game in other ways, I dont put the ward in the river, I do it in the high terrain near to Aeon or Levi, so I can still see if they are going for then, or if they are trying to gank, maybe I have to put 2 wards instead of 1, to see the area properly. The scanner area isn't huge enough to see that wards.

 

I agree, anyway that with that 300 minerals elixir you cant ward in any way.

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Hello... Nothing is free. You say rancor can kill wards "free" while other heroes can't. A skill slot is not free. Mana cost is not free (lol yes this is a weak one) and foremost, his cooldown is not free. If rancor wastes a scan to kill one ward, that's a lost opportunity to use the scan to get a kill on Zera, other rancor, reveal fog of war/nuke-kill combo, etc. Free? No.

 

And you mentioning and even comparing rancor's scan to "Toxi v4 breaking the game" is so unconstructive that I do not even know how to reply. I keep this thread in a constructive, persuasive manner: Toxi v4 was amazingly strong and OP - you might argue he broke the entire game. Rancor scan is comparable to that? Really? I let other readers decide.

 

And where are you getting this "people are complaining about stealth being useless" from? Are you one of them? It's too bad if you roll zera or unix and get countered by other teams Rancor. That's part of the game. Some heroes naturally counter other heroes, and as a good player you have to adept by changing your play style and item choices.

 

As a last comment and slightly BM, if someone is like the above-described player, L2P seriously.

 

There are other more important balance issues to be discussed than this.. Come on.

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A skill slot is not free.

 

Why do you keep repeating this. It's not true at all. Rancor's other abilities make up for hit, hell that's why he has 3 nukes. The fact that rancor has a scan doesn't make him any worse of a mage. He also has an escape and a passive that lets him get detection more easily. Why does he need both a scan AND 300 mineral elixirs?

 

Skill slots are not currency. The character as a whole needs to be examined. And right now, Rancor is a great ganker AND counters the counter to ganks--map awareness. This makes me question whether or not wards are even worth it. A buff to wards to make them harder to kill would be a start (eg. give them 3hp and make them take 1 damage from attacks).

 

Rancor scan is comparable to that? Really? I let other readers decide.

 

While you're on your soapbox, continue making more strawmen please.

What I'm saying is that "it's his role" is a terrible argument. You have provided no defense for this whatsoever, so until you do you should not expect a reply to the rest of your post.

 

There are other more important balance issues to be discussed than this.. Come on.

 

By that logic, let's let this thread sit forever:

http://www.aeonofsto...to-rngredhydra/

 

Balance issues are balance issues.

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Refuting an argument as terrible argument is terrible way to argue. Whew that was hard to write on my iPhone.

 

Anyway, I never even mentioned that rancor role is this or that - but even if my name was residente, my stand would stay the same: rancor is not breaking the game by having advantage in certain area of the game: aka detection, sneaking around cloaked to place wards, warn others of enemies movements, counter gank their ganking spot, etc.

 

Regarding your mention of soapbox, you did compare Toxi breaking game to Rancor's scan... I merely disagreed indirectly. No soapbox for me -.-

 

I argue that Scan takes up a skill slot and you say his "other skills make up for it so its fine". So if his other skills were terrible, you would be fine with Scan? Is your opinion of Scan dependent on rancor's other skill sets? There really is no relationship here in your argument.

 

I am defending Scan as a skill slot in itself. Nerf nuke, nerf snipe (happened) nerf cloak or whatever, but Scan in itself is nowhere considered "unfair" to me. If you consider "mineral cost" only, understand this: ward is 75 min. Each boundary scan is 40 min. Unfair! Haha. And please don't argue that you can waste scans to "try to find wards" because that is so nub-status.

 

P.S - I can see a point in arguing that 300 min elixirs is advantageous on rancor; however, 1) again each hero has an advantage in some aspects of the game (this is rancor's passive) and 2) rancor is really really bad at farming early-mid game believe me. I used to main rancor back in the days (ask mumblers). I rarely play him now because I just got bored -.-

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