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Poor Changes as of Late


Dietdrpepper
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I have been relatively supportive of the developers and the changes they have made in the past. I might not agree with all of them but overall I support the attempts to balance the game. That being said I am not in support of the changes made in the patches over the last couple of months. It seems to me that the balancers do a few things which I feel are inherently wrong. The first is they seem to only care about the opinions of a few misguided souls and not the community as a whole. Please don't mistake this as a sign that I feel the game should be balanced off of pub games because I don't. I do feel that it should be based off the opinions and concerns of the ih community and some of the more prominent "pubstars" that contribute to the game. This however does not seem to be the case. I cannot say how many times we end an ih game only to hear certain people from the losing side crying about the injustice and how a certain character is too strong and is the reason they lost, however, when they are on the winning side and someone has claims similar it's an entirely different story. My opinion on this will be flamed but regardless, magically every time I hear a complaint from these individuals the nerf bat comes swiftly. There are leaders, followers, and bystanders in every community. We need less bystanders in my opinion. Every time I bring anything up that I feel is wrong I hear the same leaders and followers (many of whom are not even that skilled at the game) striking my opinions down with disdain. The players that actually play the game well either don't care or don't want to get involved. I feel like we need to curb this approach and have more people get involved to improve the game.

 

My second point is that it seems to me the developers will nerf things into oblivion. They nerf characters until they are not used at all anymore. The statement "just because a character isn't popular doesn't make it weak" is a fallacy in my opinion. Sure you have a few diamonds in the rough but for the most part, if a character used to be popular and now is hardly seen you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know why. For example, there has been so much outcry on Boros from the pub perspective and from the perspective of several ih'ers that he was nerfed, nerfed again, and again. Now, the most prominent ih boros player hardly ever plays him ih anymore due to the fact he just isn't that good. Please note that ih is very different than pubs for those of you about to get on the "boros op" bandwagon. I can assure you he is definitely no longer that good. Biotron is another one that has been nerfed so much that you hardly see him ih anymore. What about Jackson? When is the last time Jackson was played IH because I cannot remember.

 

Let's discuss the recent changes to Vorpal, a character I actually play unlike the characters I have mentioned above. Here are the most recent changes to Vorpal:

 

Vorpal.Valedict

- Vorpal Catastrophe Cooldown reduced to 80/70/60 from 90/75/60.

- Vorpal Catastrophe Damage reduced to 100/150/200 (+70% INT) from 100/150/200 (+80% INT).

- Vorpal Javelin Damage increased to 60/100/140/180 (+50% Weapon Damage) from 60/90/120/150 (+50% Weapon Damage).

- Vorpal Javelin Debuff Duration reduced to 1 second from 1.5

- Vorpal Javelin Cooldown increased to 10 seconds 6.

- Vorpal Javelin now has 2 charges.

 

- Vorpal Catastrophe Cooldown reduced to 80/70/60 from 90/75/60.

10 second and 5 second CD reduction on his level 1 and 2 ult respectively. This change was not needed. Vorpal's ultimate has a relatively short CD given its usefulness. I would actually be ok with a CD increase if the nerf bat didn't swing.

 

- Vorpal Catastrophe Damage reduced to 100/150/200 (+70% INT) from 100/150/200 (+80% INT).

Unnecessary. This basically reduces Vorpal's dmg output by 10%. Vorpal's combined Ult + Surge can do a lot of AOE dmg. However, it requires the other team to clump. This wasnt an issue before the jackson nerf as he could effectively clump a team and silence them, while vorpal ult surges his way to a team kill. I will grant you that this was powerful and probably needed a nerf, however I think they went to far as Jackson is hardly played IH anymore as a result. People will claim Vorpal is a tank and therefore he shouldn't deal large amounts of damage. I disagree. The point of the tank is to have the other team focus him. Without damage he is worthless and the other side can basically ignore him. What good is a tank when the other side can ignore him completely?

 

- Vorpal Javelin Damage increased to 60/100/140/180 (+50% Weapon Damage) from 60/90/120/150 (+50% Weapon Damage).

Javelin is a poor ability purely because it uses orbs. Increasing the damage on it by a whole 30 damage at the highest level doesnt do anything. RedHydra intends on this being used for harrassment. I ask how? First you have to use your orbs to cast it meaning you cant surge which is your main ability. Next it hits EVERYTHING but what you want it to. Got a clear line of sight to the hero? It misses because it hits creeps BEHIND you. Its a crap design for a skill. If you truely want to make it used for that purpose make it unable to hit creeps and reduce the aoe hit range on it and / or remove the orb requirement.

 

- Vorpal Javelin Debuff Duration reduced to 1 second from 1.5

whatever, a nerf to a spell that isnt good in the first place.

 

- Vorpal Javelin Cooldown increased to 10 seconds 6.

Now you can wast an orb faster!

 

- Vorpal Javelin now has 2 charges.

See above.

 

I am by no means saying that Vorpal was UP - to the contrary I feel like he was balanced. There were plenty of ways to deal with Vorpal - Tosh, Spell Buffer, dont clump, etc. Problem is many people don't have good map awareness, clump, get owned by Vorpals one good combo, and then boii about losing. It's not an effective way to make changes.

 

 

Micro.Gravitus

- Constricting Slime will now affect enemy cloaked units.

- Constricting Slime Damage increased to 70/140/210/280 (+70% INT) from 70/140/210/280 (+60% INT).

- Psionic Slam Range reduced to 6/8/10/12 from 5/8/11/14.

- Psionic Slam Damage increased to 70/140/210/280 (+70% INT) from 70/140/210/280 (+60% INT).

- Spatial Flux Damage Resist reduced to 30/40/50/60% from 50/60/70/80%

- Spatial Flux now grants +30/40/50/60% Movement Speed.

- Spatial Flux Disappear Duration decreased to 1 second from 1.5

- Spatial Flux Teleport Range reduced to 6 from 11.

- Expand! now gains +40/80/120 Strength from +20/40/60.

 

Let me first say I am not a good micro player. I can say that I disagree with the changes and many others I have spoken to agree. The changes I most disagree with are the following:

- Psionic Slam Range reduced to 6/8/10/12 from 5/8/11/14.

- Spatial Flux Damage Resist reduced to 30/40/50/60% from 50/60/70/80%

- Spatial Flux now grants +30/40/50/60% Movement Speed.

- Spatial Flux Disappear Duration decreased to 1 second from 1.5

- Spatial Flux Teleport Range reduced to 6 from 11.

- Expand! now gains +40/80/120 Strength from +20/40/60.

 

Micro is an initiator. That is his role. To initiate he has to jump into a team and be able to get out effectively. This can be thwarted by a stun (tosh), silence (taser, raynor, jackson, etc). As it stands, these changes make one of the best initiators the worst. Now, if micro uses warp shard to initiate he cannot effectively blink out as his blink range is 6. What is funny is they left warp shard range but nerfed micros blink range. What is this Aeon of Items now? How is it possible that an item is better than the character ability it was based upon? The result of these nerfs have one of the best ih micro players no longer playing micro.

 

This being said, my takeaway is that when regular good inhouse players whos mains are feared enough that they are banned every game if they are on the opposing team no longer play them due to the nerfs - the nerfs were too great. I think the main problem is that these players played the characters too well and others do not want to adapt or counter them. They would rather complain and get the devs to nerf them until they no longer are a threat. The main idea I want to get across to the developers is:

 

Just because something is good or strong does not mean it needs a nerf!

 

 

Edit: I forgot to mention the "snowball" items. To decrease their effectiveness by 50% is complete overkill. They are absolutely useless now in an IH. Sure they can still be used in pubs where its common to go 21-2 or something but in an inhouse setting they are now completely trash.

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I would say that i agree that jackson and bio were nerfed too hard.

 

I would also say that vorpal was incredibly strong and prolly need a small nerf but im not quite sure i agree with what they did to him.

 

On the micro change i think they were trying to make it so micro could be more than just an initiator. i think we need to give it more time for people to adapt. (i mean EU is thinking about auto banning this new micro because they think he is too strong)

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I, for one, welcome the changes. Keeping a hero the same for literally years makes the game stale.

 

That, and claiming a hero you play is balanced is quite predictable. I'd stay away from doing that as it makes you seem unaware of your own confirmation bias.

 

Micro's jump limited counterplay. Now that it has a shorter range you can use a slow on micro to get him off your carry.

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I would say that i agree that jackson and bio were nerfed too hard.

 

I would also say that vorpal was incredibly strong and prolly need a small nerf but im not quite sure i agree with what they did to him.

 

On the micro change i think they were trying to make it so micro could be more than just an initiator. i think we need to give it more time for people to adapt. (i mean EU is thinking about auto banning this new micro because they think he is too strong)

 

Giving it more time is a reasonable thing. I just thought that was what beta testing was for.

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I consider Micro changes despite increased int scaling from Q-W changed or slightly buff. It is true E is now with a shorter range, but increased Movement speed after reappering makes it easier, even the idea you can move any direction after that and not just straight ahead. Micro is still a great initiator, True, it changed and now you need to cast it closer, but skill is faster too.

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For Vorpal; the point of a tank is to have SUSTAINED or RAMPING damage so that if you don't attack him he gets to kill you-- OR they have a pluck. We can see that with LZ-- he gets higher attack speed and resistance each time he attacks which means that if you don't blast him down, he can kill you all with ease. Vorpal has insane BURST damage with an Ulti+Surge combo, which... seems odd that a super powerful pair of damage skills is given to a tank hero. And Javelin's buffs add to his sustained damage output and overall menace; as he can use more Javelins.

 

Now I think it would be cool if Dark Matter had an active that let you make orbs, or if Javelin cost mana instead of orbs; but that's just me ;d

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WTF, the changes to Vorpal and Micro were great changes as they make them more skill oriented and less cheesy. And Micro's blink does not exactly prevent him from using small hadron collider like he still can, just he can't double blink across the entire screen, taser, and throw you to Rory half a screen behind. Anyone who thinks this was balanced should have their head examined as it forces everyone to rush taser just to counter Micro's initiation, which of course Micro tries to counter by rushing parallax after getting SHC. It was a dumb mechanic that was highly abused, and now even though you can still be stupid cheesy with SHC and MIcro at least his throw is not as long a distance and at least he can't double blink for excessively long distances anymore. He is more fun and more balanced and is not totally two dimensional.

 

Also, I think the changes to Vorpal were overall a buff, not a nerf. 2 charges on his javelin is really nice even though they last a tiny bit less time. This means you can use SHC to blink behind an enemy and double blast them back to your team and then surge yourself back with the enemy and your ult if you want. And 10% less damage scaling is barely a nerf. I mean, if you had 6 arguses we are talking about 60 extra spell damage here.

 

This patch was a good patch and considering how most new heroes are ridiculously OP, it is nice to see the medic being a good hero but a ridiculously OP one as has been the case in the past.

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I agree on the Vorpal Javelin though, it's becoming downright useless again. If only he had a higher Vorpal Sphere pool, then I would use Vorpal Javelin, because at the moment, he has a low Vorpal Sphere pool for a spammable ability of 6 seconds cooldown. Personally I would like to see the skill reworked to something like stun-in-a-line with minor damage, which is the AoE Vorpal.Valedict should really be.

 

 

On another note, I disagree on how fast the game is changing. Old players like laRmj have harder time to keep up, so they lose general skill. Goodbye Banzaiguy...

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The changes on Bio was perfect till RedHydra decided to take off the time scale increase on his W when he's underground.

 

I understand the frustration on the balance due to the fact that the developer cannot be good on every hero so not every single "touch" they do will be perfect.

 

It is extremely hard to convince them; in the other hand, to make changes that conflicts their believes.

 

All you have to do is keep on trying and you'll get something but you're not always going to get what you want.

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eh. diippaaaa get eu's shap together. the micro change (FROM U SCRABS) blindsided na and we spent a day derping at red until he ragequit mumble.

 

 

 

 

ya most of the bad changes your mentioning were Red's doing (micro, jackson, bio, even the bola change on boros)

 

 

except the vorpal change. that one is warrented. vorpal shouldn't be able to deal as much damage as other casters like, say, vergil, because his laning phase is probably one of the easiest in the game. he is basically the one hero that can reliably solo the long lane, and the two javelins makes him even stronger in laning.

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eh. diippaaaa get eu's shap together. the micro change (FROM U SCRABS) blindsided na and we spent a day derping at red until he ragequit mumble.

 

 

 

 

ya most of the bad changes your mentioning were Red's doing (micro, jackson, bio, even the bola change on boros)

 

 

except the vorpal change. that one is warrented. vorpal shouldn't be able to deal as much damage as other casters like, say, vergil, because his laning phase is probably one of the easiest in the game. he is basically the one hero that can reliably solo the long lane, and the two javelins makes him even stronger in laning.

 

not to mention u stick vorpal long lane and just forget about him it doesn't matter if he goes 0-10 " which is extremely unlikely" cause he can still do his job in team fights effectively vorpal is useful period like the new medic doesn't need items to be effective

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It actually takes a lot of skill to go negatives as Vorpal on lanin' phase cause all you have to do is 2 things.

 

1. "oh creep too far away" -> Hit "Q" -> No problem.

 

2. "Oh enemy is closing in -> Hit "W" -> No problem.

 

My W is broken by followin this advice. I clicked W several times but Vorpal does nothing :(

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I know, but changing the current heroes without a reason (as I think that the vorpal changes were totally unnecessary) doesnt make the game less stale

 

I was mainly referring to the micro change, but I can see where you're going with that.

 

I think the micro change is good because slows need a place again, imo. There are so many gap closers on some heroes that slows don't do too much.

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I dont think boro really op DrP my self hes still really good even with what they did to him, also the main reson hes not played Ih games cause people cry to autoban him an a few others which is ok but kinda gets boring in those ih games cause most people use the same heros an use the same bans, to many bans I say sure theres really great late game heros if you let them feed eairly on thats your teams fault for not stoping that hero an feeding them.

 

I do fine it funny when some 1 says boro op yet they using a hard hitting hero as nova ect, or a stun fiend like tosh.

All heros are op in there own way an if they get the level jump over other heros with a few items above other people ya people start crying op, when in fact they allowed that player to get the jump on them giving them the egde.

 

As I said before theres ways to counter an stop any hero reguardless play smart an use the rite item builds an have the rite combow of heros it also depends on your skill as a team.

 

As for the changes im so so on most of the stuff they do there is alot of things I fine theres more cons most of the time then pros not by much tho, as for making changes just to heros cause some don't know how to counter cause they feel like crying op.

 

If theres any garmer spell errors ill get to it some time later on busy at the sec seems to be ok.

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I was mainly referring to the micro change, but I can see where you're going with that.

 

I think the micro change is good because slows need a place again, imo. There are so many gap closers on some heroes that slows don't do too much.

 

In that case yes, the micro change was a real change to the hero (which I liked :P)

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@ Eliwan

You are correct that the point of a tank is to have ramped or sustained dmg. The problem is vorpal does not have either. He has very low sustained damage and no ramped damage. Therefore at the moment he has burst damage that requires the team to pay attention to positioning and deal with him. It is a different version of damage. After he does his ult surge his damage is drastically reduced below other characters. Therefore it's his burst damage that makes the other team deal with him. That being said there are changes that could be implemented to change this playstyle but the current changes just make him not as useful overall.

 

@ Owl

It seems to me SHC was the problem you had with micro not his blink. Therefore maybe warpshard / SHC is what needs changed. By making micros innate initiation weaker it weakens the character as a whole.

 

If you feel the changes to vorpal were an overall buff you must have read them wrong or nto understand how vorpal works. Javelin hits everything (i.e. creeps, minions, etc) but what you want it to hit. This used to not be as much of a problem when the creep spawn rate was reduced but now there are always creeps and hitting with javelin is unreliable at best. It also uses orbs which you need to surge and ult. I would have been fine if they had removed javelin completely from the game given its current state and just left his Q, W, R the same. Instead they buff it a measly 30 dmg and give it charges.

 

As far as the 10% nerf only taking off 60 dmg with 6 argus crystals you need to check your math. It is actually a lot more and it is per tick not total. Therefore you are looking at a major nerf to vorpal's main damage source other than surge.

 

@Whale

A character should not be punished hard late game because their laning phase is "ez". I would say most characters minus a few can easily lane. Maybe not long lane but lane none the less.

 

I understand your thoughts that a "tank" should not have as much dmg as a caster but please note a few things:

1) you sacrifice tankiness for that damage

2) after you use your ult+surge your damage is reduced drastically

 

If vorpal had other ways to deal damage then I would not be as adamant about my disapproval of these changes, however, in its current state vorpal's usefulness compared to other tanks has been greatly diminished. If you look at the amount of damage that can come from a drake ult (considering the team cleans up the enemy caught by it) the result is the same. Vorpal doesnt have the ability to stun the entire team while doing high sustained damage to them.

 

@ Crimson

Boros is not auto'd or banned IH anymore. You may be speaking of pubhouses where I know they auto the likes of null / boros / etc. but mumble doesnt auto any of these heros. It used to be that boros would be banned every game that highdrater was playing in but now it isn't ever banned because let's face it, what is the point?

 

@ RedHydra

To be clear, I have heard from a lot of people and there is some good information unlike the trolling I expected. I would like to hear what you has to say. I would like to hear his comments on why you feel differently than I do given the above information. I would like to hear something other than "we felt X char was doing too much damage" or "we feel X char was too strong" or "EU is banning it" and give actual reasons behind the change. People "feeling" like something is overpowered and needs to be changed is quite different from it actually being OP and needing changed. For instance, before the tournament no one (and if there were a small group of ppl fine, I dont need to hear the "I always said egon was op") thought that egon was OP. After the tournament it was discovered he was indeed too strong. Is it not possible that the reverse could be true and things that some feel are OP are really just problems with answers that have not yet been discovered? Case in point, split pushing with an agi character like shadow seems very strong at the moment. Does that mean there needs to be a nerf or is it more likely that through more games people will discover better strategies to deal with it?

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I think drake ulti does to much as it is, 600(+100%int) + knock up + regenerate 50% of his health... just a knock up and regenerating 50% of his hp would be an amazing ulti and make him tank-worthy. The problem i have with vorpal is that he is so naturally tanky that you can get an argus+gravity edge and you can not only kill an entire team (doing more burst dmg than most if not all casters) by yourself with the ult surge, and they cant kill you unless its 4-5v1.

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@Quistmann

I would disagree that you can team wipe with vorpal without your team being present. In a team fight sure, vorpal can bring everyone down but only if they clump and position poorly which to be honest happens a lot. His natural tankiness is purely his dark matter which is only spell damage. I can assure you vorpal can be killed even in a 2v1 especially if one of those chars has a stun. Tosh pretty much owns vorpal in the right setting imo. If he micros properly he can stop the ult surge combo rendering vorpal neutered and vorpals surge doesnt kill tosh's specters post buff. That being said, I am not saying that the nerf to his ult was absolutely wrong, I just feel it was wrong when you look at the rest of his skills.

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