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My views on the balance of the game (12/05)


BestZeratul
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First of all, this is gonna be a big post, with a lot of content. This is mostly my opinion and as a mainly dota player I may be influenced by it. If the post has to be separted in several thread to be discussed I'll do it gladly.

 

The post will be organized in 3 different parts : general mechanics, items, and finally heroes.

 

General mechanics :

 

Creep spawns

 

After having played a few games during the past week, I can say I like the changes and think the game is in a good place in that regard at the moment. One thing that has to be noted is that there is a huge difference between the sidelanes and the midlane in that regard : mega waves cannot from themselves in mid because both towers are too close to each other, and even more than that it is actually harder to push the mid T1 because the next creep wave is here so fast. This is in my opinion very beneficial to the game because it makes a lot of heroes actually viable in mid and brings diversity to the game.

 

Jungle

 

I think there is a huge problem at the moment with how much money and experience the jungle gives. Basically you farm faster in the jungle than in the lane, which shouldn't be the case in my opinion for a simple reason : being in the lane means that you are visible for the enemy team, putting yourself at risk, and giving them information. When you are in the jungle, the enemy team does not know where you are, which means you are harder to gank, and you can gank more easily, while giving the opportunity to your team to have a solo laner who will level faster and get more last hits.

Basically jungling should be a trade between the surprise element and how much experience and gold you get, and today there is no decision to make cause you get more of everything in the jungle.

 

Towers

 

Towers should be reverted to physical damage, and the armor system has to be reworked to make it possible, even though it represents hours of work. The reason for that is that except a select few tanks, maxed heroes cannot tank towers. This is a problem when you have already lost several suppressors and you win a team fight, because towers dealing true damage make it impossible to exploit the fact that you won the engagement, because you cannot push without creeps.

 

Wards and detection

 

I feel that chrono elixir needs to be reworked, or made more expensive. The problem is that the ability to deward the whole map at any time for 600 minerals seems way too cheap for what it brings. You can say that the chrono is an investment, I'd say that is true during the laning phase, it's hardly the case once the laning phase is over, because it becomes a must.

To give a point of comparison to the people who do not play dota, in dota there is a cooldown on how many wards you can buy, and the equivalent of the chrono elixir is an item that is dropped on the floor when you die (so the enemy team can pick it up) and that item has a cooldown as well (meaning you have to wait before buying a new one). Granted invisibility is much stronger in dota than aos, but minerals are way easier to get in aos than gold in dota as well.

 

Removal of TPs

 

I don't know why you felt the need to remove TPs when you added the teleport talent. It makes it impossible to lane swap, defend towers correctly besides T3 or even gank without going MIA for an entire minute. I know you made a post to explain it, saying that you didn't want people to have to buy TPs to be effective, same argument as the removal of boots. The removal of boots led you to adding movespeed talents and a lot of movespeed items (let's call them "boots v6.0"), however the removal of TPs was not compensated by anything and just makes the game less enjoyable in general in my mind.

 

Items :

 

Gravity edge

 

I will be very direct on this one. This item is straight up retarded, what the flob went through your head when you introduced this into the game ? With this item any hero with an AOE ultimate will take 1/2 to 3/4 of your hp in seconds, with no counter available whatsoever besides building HP, and yes you can certainly build a carapace on most heroes and it won't be a bad thing on most heroes with 6 slots, however if you have 2 heroes with burst AOE ults that is just not enough, and it doesn't make sense that to counter a team that has both cow and vergil (there are more heroes I'm taking easy examples) you have to build double carapace on all your heroes. If you want casters to be viable lategame you can make spell resist more expensive or increase the scaling of spells, but this was a incredibly stupid decision.

 

Electric mantle

 

Again this item is stupid, for the same reason : if you are an AA hero there is simply no counter to it. It's a flobing long stun with a shap ton of damage and it has a really short cooldwon, while giving you spell resist and HP. The item should be changed back to being active and the CD should be increased drastically because of how strong it is. There is already a lot of counters to AA heroes, including shrapnel, aura items, etc, no need to have something that overpowered, especially when it cannot be countered.

 

Heroes :

 

Egon

 

The hero is autobanned at the moment and I think for a good reason. There are two problems with the hero in my opinion. The first one is that he can give himself mana, meaning that his laning phase is just way too strong at the moment, one possible change would be to divide by two the amount of mana he can give himself without changing it for his allies.

The second and more important problem is his healing ward. This spell is way too strong and because of his passive it is available way too often, so I think the simplest solution is too just rework the passive and Egon's cooldowns in general.

 

Tychus

 

I just don't understand. Everyone has been saying since the beginning of 5.0 that the hero is way too tanky and has way too much damage at the same time. And since then you gave him an AOE heal with huge scaling and very low mana cost and a big ass nuke that makes laning against him extremely painful. I think you have to make up your mind about what the hero should be, and adjust it accordingly, because he tanks better than tanks and can stand 1v1 against almost all carries late game, while providing so much utility for his team.

 

Null

 

I have very little experience with the hero for now, but in my opinion there is a problem with how much he can spam spells without ever running out of mana. I read the balance thread about him and I think people approach the hero in a completely wrong perspective. His skills are not actually killing you, but they setup other skills from teammates and give Null free reign to AA with his huge range during the laning phase. When you lane it with a drake for example, you can't argue that the stun dmg is low and that it's not a problem that the mana cost is so low, because if Null actually hits the stun you will get lanced 100%. It also doesn't really make sense to have a hero with skill shot if you can spam the skill shot endlessly.

 

Vorpal

 

That hero might be one of the most annoying ones in the latest versions. Takes litteraly no skill to play, has endless mana (I don't understand, having to last it to use spells was such a cool concept, and you throw it away giving vorpal the ability to spam skills all the time effectively giving him the same thing as mega high mana regen), and is close to unkillable in the lane. It truely makes me sad that possibly the most original hero in sotis/aos has become this.

 

Darpa

 

The damage output on his spidermine compared to the mana cost is simply retarded. Being able to win the midlane against any hero by just spamming it makes no sense, the damage has to be reduced or the mana cost has to be increased. Darpa has already one of the highest DPS in the game simply cause he can skip a lot of survivability items by relying on his ult and his huge mobility, so it does not really makes sense for him to be one of the best nukers in the game as well.

 

Shadow

 

I know the pubbers are going to scream at me for writing this but I feel that with the rework of his ult in early 6.0, and the introduction of so many anti AA items in the game the hero is borderline useless at the moment against a competent team, because the window in which he can do damage is really small, and especially because he thrives in 1v1 2v1 kind of engagements. So once you actually have to push towers and team fight he becomes rather useless (as he always was in this situation), except he isn't very powerful late game unlike a few versions ago.

 

Maar

 

The hero needs an entire rework of his skillset. Given the skills he has I suppose he was meant to be a support hero but he fails at supporting miserably. Instead the only way he can be played effectively is stacking a shap ton of INT and nuke/sap everything lategame, making the hero dull and completely useless until he has like 350 INT.

 

 

Notes :

 

- These are personal opinions and don't reflect anything but my opinions, so don't bm inhousers or the EU community because of them.

- If you have suggestions or comments feel free to PM me so I can improve the post.

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Gravity's Edge is there because crits also deal true damage.

 

One ult takes 1/4th of your hp? How about nova taking 1/4th of your hp in one shot? A tank isn't going to lose 1/4th of his hp to anything but a cyprus ult.

 

If you're going to make carries resistant to casters, there should be more armor and spell resist items for casters. Yamato and Star's Fury really isn't significant enough, and forcing casters to buy tank items while carries can buy stuff like galactic defender and all the other new spell resist items is just silly.

 

 

Electric mantle is a bit OP. I think that raising the cooldown is all that's needed, though. If it's an active then there would be no counter to silences, and fighting, say, zeratul would be based entirely on reflexes, which isn't really engaging.

 

 

But I agree with a lot of these, except that I like the removal of TP's if only because you can easily push now after ganking a lane. Otherwise you just get ganked or killed by heroes good at defending towers (zeratul with his bubble comes to mind).

I think shadow's ganking ability and his mobility make up for his lack of usefulness in teamfights. The solution isn't to make him good at killing entire teams, though. Back when boros did 100% true damage on crits, all the inhousers shouted "group up," which in practice just made everyone die at the same time.

Heroes with strengths in some areas need to have weaknesses. Otherwise Tassadar would be the best carry on paper since he does 140% of the physical DPS and 200% of the on-hit DPS of any other carry.

 

- If you have suggestions or comments feel free to PM me so I can improve the post.

 

Why not just post in the thread? There's nothing official about it.

 

EDIT: Ah okay, stuff that's not discussion.

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Jungle

 

I think there is a huge problem at the moment with how much money and experience the jungle gives. Basically you farm faster in the jungle than in the lane, which shouldn't be the case in my opinion for a simple reason : being in the lane means that you are visible for the enemy team, putting yourself at risk, and giving them information. When you are in the jungle, the enemy team does not know where you are, which means you are harder to gank, and you can gank more easily, while giving the opportunity to your team to have a solo laner who will level faster and get more last hits.

Basically jungling should be a trade between the surprise element and how much experience and gold you get, and today there is no decision to make cause you get more of everything in the jungle.

 

I largely agree. Ekco has already started to address this by removing neutral buffs, but its just not enough IMO. The fact that jungling is so strong also puts a premium on heroes that can solo side lanes, namely vorpal, micro, toxi, etc. Vorpal is almost a must on teams because he is hands down the best to put in a 1v2 situation, and can do so without worry even in the long lane.

 

Towers

 

Towers should be reverted to physical damage, and the armor system has to be reworked to make it possible, even though it represents hours of work. The reason for that is that except a select few tanks, maxed heroes cannot tank towers. This is a problem when you have already lost several suppressors and you win a team fight, because towers dealing true damage make it impossible to exploit the fact that you won the engagement, because you cannot push without creeps.

 

I'm not entirely sure I agree. The only tower you cant tank without creeps is the artifact. An end game team can easily destroy every tier 3 sans creeps with the tanks soaking up damage. That said, I agree with the fundamental problem here, that is, how hard it is to push into the opponents base even after winning a team fight. The issue, however, lies in the frequency and the size of the creep waves. If you win a team fight in your base and your lanes are all pushed in, your team will have to wade their way through at least 3-4 waves before reaching the other side of the map. If you try to backdoor, which you could do, your base is going to evaporate before you can do significant enough damage.

 

Gravity edge

 

I will be very direct on this one. This item is straight up retarded, what the flob went through your head when you introduced this into the game ? With this item any hero with an AOE ultimate will take 1/2 to 3/4 of your hp in seconds, with no counter available whatsoever besides building HP, and yes you can certainly build a carapace on most heroes and it won't be a bad thing on most heroes with 6 slots, however if you have 2 heroes with burst AOE ults that is just not enough, and it doesn't make sense that to counter a team that has both cow and vergil (there are more heroes I'm taking easy examples) you have to build double carapace on all your heroes. If you want casters to be viable lategame you can make spell resist more expensive or increase the scaling of spells, but this was a incredibly stupid decision.

 

You might be overstating the extent to which a team would have to compensate defensively for the item, but I agree it is too strong.

 

Electric mantle

 

Again this item is stupid, for the same reason : if you are an AA hero there is simply no counter to it. It's a flobing long stun with a shap ton of damage and it has a really short cooldwon, while giving you spell resist and HP. The item should be changed back to being active and the CD should be increased drastically because of how strong it is. There is already a lot of counters to AA heroes, including shrapnel, aura items, etc, no need to have something that overpowered, especially when it cannot be countered.

 

Broken, through and through. Needs to be active.

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Agreed with everything except Shadow and Gravity Edge.

 

Shadow: you say he is underpowered. He is not. In pubs he is minorly OP, in IHs, he is quite balanced. You can't rely on him to be the only aa hero on the team, and to wipe everything, but if you have tanks, initiators, dissablers another aa hero (preferably more farm dependant and ranged, such as Nova, Kerrigan, Darpa, etc) and all other components of a healthy team comp, shadow will perform just fine, unless the other team has a really hard burst damage nuker like Rancor, Cyprus, Mandrake, etc.

 

Gravity Edge: the amount of spell resist you can get in this game is bs. If you have a Sliptyde Scythe, Galactic Defendor, and an E mantle, and are in range of some tank with spell buffer and korhal, spells damage is majorly reduced against you, while you have huge tanking ability against other forms of damage, and you can still deal huge amounts back. Gravity edge is a result of everything being massively enlarged in recent versions (more creeps, more expensive items, higher damage, hp, armor, spell resist, spell damage, etc). Considering how easy it is to get ~50% spell resist, gravity edge is just needed for spellcasters to stay viable in later stages of the game.

 

Otherwise agreed entirely. Oh, and a suggesting for neutral creeps: make them deal WAY more damage, so that only a select few can jungle. Otherwise, I can solo creep camps at level 1, with almost any hero, providing I have leech talent, and a correct items on me, without even dipping below 40% hp.

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Don't agree that much on gravity edge. On most casters it doesn't allow you to take maybe more than 50% of a tank's hp afer spamming all your spells. Quite often you take maybe less than 30% due to tank regeneration, heal and what not.

Its a very powerful item mid game but required to make casters do any damage late game to tanks or resistance stacking AGI heroes.

 

Null does run out of mana especially early and mid. Late game he's floating mana, but so is every caster who went INT heavy. I think the most complaints people tend to have is the ultimate mirror which makes running away extremely difficult and the forcefield stacking. Missile stun is very short and not that great in range compared to many other INT hero stuns. Ditto on damage.

His passive that gives him timescale and reduces enemy timescale may be the other issue.

 

Electric mantle probably just needs 1 second higher cooldown. Generally I feel it isn't that much better than alternatives you would buy and is an investment. It makes 1v1 very hard but in a gank or teamfight its effects are quite negligible, considering its not just the enemy who buys this. Shrapnel to counter AA doesn't always work as quite a few AA heroes have temporary debuff immunity from abilities, which makes timing it a gamble and long cooldown meaning single use per team fight (or per 2 teamfights).

 

DIsagree on shadow being weak. The stepping strikes make targeting him very difficult especially when he also has bonus timescale. In fact, most AGI heroes late game with phantom menace are nearly unkillable as they just escape before they can be killed and cannot be chased. Think Shade, Jump, etc. Most AGI heroes have some escape ability which boosts MS or blinks or buy Shinobi.

 

For towers, I think true damage is good. And its not like we don't see teams tanking towers late game even without a tank simply by alternating. Just takes teamplay. Stacking anti hero dps on a team and lacking crowd control is where this might come back to bite you, while those with good CC can handle towers more easily but do less well in team fights.

 

Other than that your points are fine.

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Otherwise agreed entirely. Oh, and a suggesting for neutral creeps: make them deal WAY more damage, so that only a select few can jungle. Otherwise, I can solo creep camps at level 1, with almost any hero, providing I have leech talent, and a correct items on me, without even dipping below 40% hp.

 

Umm, 40% hp after one camp is a ton of damage.

 

Jungling involves clearing them repeatedly as your primary income source (you can tax lanes too). Try jungling with Dustin or Rory early-game and see how far you get.

 

 

Null does run out of mana especially early and mid. Late game he's floating mana, but so is every caster who went INT heavy. I think the most complaints people tend to have is the ultimate mirror which makes running away extremely difficult and the forcefield stacking. Missile stun is very short and not that great in range compared to many other INT hero stuns. Ditto on damage.

His passive that gives him timescale and reduces enemy timescale may be the other issue.

 

The stun is pretty long, actually. Most stuns are 1 second. Null's stun is shorter than that (I think?) but it can be used from a ridiculous range and is AoE. It's like having Queen's ultralisk stun as a Q.

 

Electric mantle probably just needs 1 second higher cooldown. Generally I feel it isn't that much better than alternatives you would buy and is an investment. It makes 1v1 very hard but in a gank or teamfight its effects are quite negligible, considering its not just the enemy who buys this. Shrapnel to counter AA doesn't always work as quite a few AA heroes have temporary debuff immunity from abilities, which makes timing it a gamble and long cooldown meaning single use per team fight (or per 2 teamfights).

 

 

One second is too small of a nerf.

Make it 10 seconds again and it might be fine.

 

I don't agree with making it an active mainly because I think there should be a way to counter silences other than silencing the silencer. So many heroes are dependent on active abilities that there has to be a way to defend yourself while silenced. Parallax isn't reliable as people can just time their spells/taser so that parallax does nothing.

 

If active items could be casted while silenced, then I'd be okay with making it active. But stuns practically remove you from the game, and EM is one of the few ways you can still do something while unable to cast or attack. Making it active again will make stuns much more frustrating to deal with. And anyone who's played against a good tank who uses SHC will know why stuns are annoying.

 

For towers, I think true damage is good. And its not like we don't see teams tanking towers late game even without a tank simply by alternating. Just takes teamplay. Stacking anti hero dps on a team and lacking crowd control is where this might come back to bite you, while those with good CC can handle towers more easily but do less well in team fights.

 

I think you have a point. Chob's suggestion to make them deal physical damage again will make carries able to backdoor by themselves. Reworking armor would solve this, and give the added benefit of promoting teamfights by having tanks aggro towers to allow teamfights under the tower.

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  • Regarding Gravity Edge, let's make a simple calculation with vergil. With a relatively standard build he should have around 350 INT lategame. So his ult deals 3x(270+0.4x350) = 1230 spell damage before spell resist, 430 of it being true dmg. If you add his Q twice, you reach around 2K dmg with 700 true dmg in an AOE. If you add cow as well with Q and R it basically kills all the non strength heroes or bring them to such low hp they have to retreat, and there is no counter to this at all.If you want casters to be viable lategame you can increase the scaling of spells or make spell resist more expensive, because it is counterable and brings decision making into the game, not brainless stacking of INT items with a gravity edge and mass AOE rape with no subtility whatsoever.

 

 

 

  • As for shadow, I'm only talking about inhouse in this thread. The reason for that is that you can simply not balance the game for pubs because there is a lot of players that don't do what they are supposed to do with their hero and it just loses the game on its own, and there is no "fix" for this, it's not balance issue it's a skill and game understanding issue. So back to shadow, the problem with him is that inhousers like to buy a lot of wards, so his ganking power is way less important in inhouse than pubs. He is a fairly poor laner, and he gets outcarried pretty hard. So basically his window of opportunity is to get really fed before teamfighting happens, and with good warding and good picks he can siply not get that fat in the laning phase in my opinion.

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Really good thread Chob, I agree pretty much with everything, just note though TP's might find there way back in, just for nows they are test I guess. Obviously I will always defend my boy Tychus, but in my mind ATM he is very mana intensive. He's not very mobile, yes he is spool tanky, but his q is so small in damage that it's pointless these days, but to say tychus can kill all game long (don't think you said that) but he relies on his team heavily for it. Once however he gets to late and has the items nassasary tp kill his opposing carries, he rapes all.. But to get the requires alot. I have always felt from the beginning of his rework, he's ultimate lasts too long and has a redicoulously short cd for an ultimate that is oneof the best if not the best tank skill in the game.

But in my mind that's where tychus needs to change, not the actual values of his resistance.

 

Also fruit Ninja crits dont do true damage anymore. I'm personally gonna ask ecko and red to read this thread if they haven't already!

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I disagree with your jungle statement. Even if the jungle is more advantageous in ALL ways respect to the lane, this is balanced out by the fact that pushing the lane advances your team's overall objective, and destroying the towers give decent rewards. It's not a choice based on benefits, it's a race to jungle sufficiently while also protecting your lane.

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@ Chob, I don't ever play MUMBLE inhouses. I play regular inhouses with friends who haven't yet turned to mumble, and there isn't as much of a gap between those as there used to be (since mumble level dropped, pubstar level stayed pretty much the same).

 

@ Fruitninja, yes but the fact that I can solo a creep camp at level 1 with a hero like Rory, even if they take away 50% of my life is wrong. The fact that as mule, I hit 2 camps alone, return to pool, then port to lane with transport talent also doesn't seem right. IMO, you should NOT be able to do that. They deal too little damage, even against non armored heroes early game. Even a heavy agi hero like Shadow, with lots of armor, physical damage, and some leech should not actually be able to hit 2 creep camps and have enough hp left to take a third, at least at level 1. That's what I was trying to say.

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Yeh, eliwan is right.

That is why they got nerfed to 30 percent base, 60 with khali.

(crits)

 

If crits are fixed then edge can be nerfed. AA heroes need to remain balanced with respect to the other classes and vice versa.

 

@Doom I think all you've proven is that neutrals should spawn later. The real problem is not that they are too weak (try relying on it as your only source of income--that's jungling), but that the rewards are too great.

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Touched on most of the vital points there chob, i agree with most of it... GJ!

 

On a side note... it's funny how when i state that Emantle is broken/OP everyone says it's fine but when someone else says it's broken/OP it has to be broken/OP!? the mentality of the forums...

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Ye, after last patch crits do true damage again.

 

I like most of your concerns. Especially about jungle. However I'm surprised that u forget about Shadowmourne - the most broken item there is. Anyway I agree that Electric Mantle should be changed into active. Parallax as well. Both require no skill to play.

 

If speaking about mechanics and meta game - I don't like true damage in this game. One simple reason - there is no counter to it. I don't mind some specific abilities do true damage. But it shouldn't be sth every hero can do. So item like Gravity Edge (I'm still surprised almost no one get this item with Pyre to go through tanks spell resist), criticals, towers should be changed to not do true damage. After it armor should be scaled down as physical resistance is way to strong.

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Sentry is op because people with actual skill can do what i call the four ff of death where you can actually imprison someone with ease from a safe distance to be setup for any type of devastation. The fact that q does crazy damage and stuns is icing on the cake. I built that guy aa thinking i was a troll in pubs then realized the insane damage output from all the cc allowing me to get free hits. The problem is that half the characters are op and thus are autobanned. Why not just buff everyone else and make them just as op.

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