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Leave Maar Alone!


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So lately, i have noticed you have been hammering maar, trying to make him more of a support character instead of sap death char. Since the sap nerf, frost wave nerf and multiple despair nerfs, he needs to be fixed. Most characters that are supports/casters fall weaker late game due to the fact of aa carries like nova, boros and crackling. However, this was not the case with Maar because he actually benefited from late game because of the int scaling on his spells. I never had a problem dealing with op characters like Nova or Shadow. They run up to me. Sap, stars fury basic attack with 750 int, = 2500 damage. Now people argue over how people like shadow, boros nova or darpa are op, and you high up people say "Ermm it is counterable because you can just get shrapnel cloak or barbed plating." Well you can do that with Maar too, you can use Taser and there is a few spells that are silences. So if you refuse to nerf them and nerf one of thier few hero counters then what is this? I say give Maar back his 200%INT sap because it countered this ap carries. Maar could solo a 1v5, if he was alone he could win the game. Now he has been taken off that list in my opinion because of all these nerfs. Its not like he can push towers with his spells, so whats the big deal with it? Overall, just please stop nerfing him, he is basically useless until about 20-30 mins in because of low base damage on every spell and since you won't have a high int.

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Excuse me, but how does a balanced hero win a 1v5, especially if against OP heroes? Another thing: what is the point of a hero with considerably more spells than normal heroes have, if he's only going to use 2? Since his reimplementation, in v5, maar has been a spammer hero. First it was Fire Wall, then it was Sap, now it is Frost Wave...... With his low cooldowns, maar is essentially a Spell DPS hero. Do you not sometimes wonder, how come maar can fire off 3 long range slows, which also deal decent damage, in the time a regular hero fires off 1? It is nearly undodgable, and once you get hit by one, every other skillshot is nearly undodgable. The Maar Raynor lane comp has no counters that I've seen. 20-30 minutes, my ass. Maar was overpowered, we hit him with the nerf bat, perhaps not even hard enough, and you're the human rights activist that's looking on and boiiing about the inhumaneness of it all.

 

I'm one of the largest complainers about current aa heroes (Though I focus on Boros and not much else) but making Maar op is not going to make me any happier, or this game any better.

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(Dont know how to quote so i will just type ur guy's name then reply)

 

JustEnergy: They did do slight overkill on them.

Doom: So instead they nerf a hero who cant deal damage to buildings with thier dps, and not nerf the one who team wipes in .3 seconds, and maar used to be able to counter him(talking about boros)

Revolution: Yes a skilled maar can 1v5 if he has good micro and the enemies are complete idiots and dont get taser. He doesnt do damage to buildings and your fine with bs like tosh,nova,darpa,shadow,crackling 1v5 a team? Well im going to use you moderators high up people's excuse that "Ermm you can just get taser or a shrapnel cloak." So why not use that, just get a taser. I mean it works for attack command heroes, and not heroes who use more then 3 buttons and dont have instant leach. Also there is something called "Spell Resist."

.

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(Dont know how to quote so i will just type ur guy's name then reply)

 

JustEnergy: They did do slight overkill on them.

Doom: So instead they nerf a hero who cant deal damage to buildings with thier dps, and not nerf the one who team wipes in .3 seconds, and maar used to be able to counter him(talking about boros)

Revolution: Yes a skilled maar can 1v5 if he has good micro and the enemies are complete idiots and dont get taser. He doesnt do damage to buildings and your fine with bs like tosh,nova,darpa,shadow,crackling 1v5 a team? Well im going to use you moderators high up people's excuse that "Ermm you can just get taser or a shrapnel cloak." So why not use that, just get a taser. I mean it works for attack command heroes, and not heroes who use more then 3 buttons and dont have instant leach. Also there is something called "Spell Resist."

.

 

You're argument makes no sense at all. IMHO no hero should EVER be able to 1v5 another team, and yes you can just get a taser to shut down maar that's very true although I don't know what you're trying to get at here. Maar's always supposed to have been a support hero, not a 1v5 carry, and nerfing him offensively while giving him some small defensive buffs, helped better shape him into the role he should have been fulfilling as a hero, and more importantly helping to fill a gap of support heroes in the game, because unfortunately there will always be baddies like you whining and crying because you expect every hero to be able to "1v5" and cry about UP if they can't

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+1 to legacies argument

It takes time to cast Maar's spells so during late game Maar really needs that extra int damage. A reduction to his heatwave, frost wave, and sap int damage causes Maar to have to tap W, or E a couple more times, which is a few seconds. Those few seconds are vital in a game, and if you take away dmg, it not only takes time to cast his spells so Maar is basically flobed.

 

I've never seen Maar solo 1v5 before, and I highly doubt he can unless he snowballed hard early game. But Maar's abilities are so easy to dodge and it is very troubling they nerfed heatwave by -50% because it was a skill shot.

 

This version definitely benefits strength and agility heroes whereas int characters suffer.

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This version definitely benefits strength and agility heroes whereas int characters suffer.

 

I agree, but I think INT heroes are fine in terms of damage. It's the fact that there are zero spell resist and two armor (in the form of agi) items that go well with INT builds, whereas other heroes can stack Tanky-DPS items. When people start realizing that Tanky-DPS > glass cannon except on a few cases (nova), INT heroes will probably drop a lot in pubs.

 

But with a team that knows how to follow through in teamfights, INT heroes are still pretty good. Dustin can wreck a team, for example, if his team can peel the enemy off of him. Maar has a ton of AoE too.

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Edge: Yes, but he is a hero who is easier to 1v5, (all heroes can if the enemy team sucks) and maar just doesnt do that good of supporting his team, his heals are jack, his aura are easy to dodge, his offensives are difficult to aim except for frost wave and sap. Also your telling me vorpal is supposed to be a tank just because of his tank description or Tassadar is a dps just because it says dps?(most tass are spell dps) and in order for maar to do this "op combo" he has to do all of this compared to some heroes. Most heroes require 1-2 actions to kill people, or they have combos, like rory lockbox steve, null forcefield stun sword, cyp ulti death combo to name a few, but they mainly do this once every 45 secs. But those combos are guaranteed 1 hit kills. For maar to do that he has to press w,e then hit q, click, then basic attack, at the same time trying to dodge spells like silences and ap carries, and you have to rinse repeat this every 2 seconds. If you hit 1 button wrong like you make another orb by accidently or clicking before the sap is ready. Also im guessing your some guy who runs around with shadow or nova all day and goes its not op. Well im going to use the arguement that you guys always drop on us poor int players. "Ermm you can just use taser or shrapnel and we useless." And in order for maar to win 1v5 he has to do a crap load of stuff, because 1 tiny hotkey miss and your DEAD. Unlike some heroes where its shift attack command into base and then gg while i go make popcorn.

FruitNinja: I agree that tanky dps is really good, and once people go tanky dps, casters/ support become weaker. Also maar's Aoe is an area of effect aura that doesnt do much for how hard it is to aim, his fireballs are stupidly easy to dodge unless you are really good at aiming them.

Calvin:Maar takes forever to become strong, as you said, if your a fairly good last hitter and have a few kills/ assists you still wont be doing much till the 1 hr mark unless your entire team leaves at about 20 mins, then you can steamroll like crazy. Also i have won a 1v5 with maar, kinda hard though.

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(Dont know how to quote so i will just type ur guy's name then reply)

Doom: So instead they nerf a hero who cant deal damage to buildings with thier dps, and not nerf the one who team wipes in .3 seconds, and maar used to be able to counter him(talking about boros)

 

Let me try to bring an analogy, since I think you didn't understand what I said during my direct approach. Imagine Boros is a small wound in your arm. You are afraid that it might get infected, or you might bleed out from it, seeing as you have nothing to staunch the wound with. Now your solution is to take a machete (Maar) and chop off the entire arm, from the shoulder. As a result, you bleed out way faster, and die shortly before some bystander nominates you for the Darwin Awards.

 

Making a badder, meaner, more op hero will certainly make Boros slightly less scary, and will serve as a counter. On the other hand, OP maar is going to be even more problematic than OP boros. The solution to a hero that (according to you) wipes a building in 0.3 seconds is not making another hero wipe Boros in 0.03 seconds, it's making the hero that wipes buildings in 0.3 seconds weaker, so that it DOESN'T wipe building in 0.3 seconds.

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Yeah don't make MAAR a support hero. Just buff his damage moves cause I like damage and I don't want to play a hero who has a support concept as support. Make him be another boring damage dealer and lose his creative auras (atleast I think they are creative). Because instead of countering dps by using my aura to reduce their damage then another to he allies I should be able to 1 shot them and be a super tank by gettting 500 Bo every 3 sec from sap. Cause I wanna 1v5 again as a support. It makes me feel good as a player, screw my team, this being a team game, creative heroes, and having a challenge.

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Doom: So your fine with a op character who can kill an entire team by pressing the r button, and maybe spell storm(never played him so dont know hotkey), then goes to make popcorn? So sure he can kill boros and is a "Machete" but you gotta work a whole load to own with maar. Boros has no if i press this im dead. Maar definatly does. Atleast maar has a counter.

God: I haven't played the game back then, so i hope it was good :D

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Doom: So your fine with a op character who can kill an entire team by pressing the r button, and maybe spell storm(never played him so dont know hotkey), then goes to make popcorn? So sure he can kill boros and is a "Machete" but you gotta work a whole load to own with maar. Boros has no if i press this im dead. Maar definatly does. Atleast maar has a counter.

God: I haven't played the game back then, so i hope it was good :D

 

Taser rapes Maar quickly but taser only make boros loose a few seconds till he finally kill you

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Legacy, I think you should just abandon this post because you made such an ignorant mess out of it. Your main argument is that Maar couldn't win a game 1v5... As well as any AA hero can buy a taser and counter him, which they can and that is the point of a taser...

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Doom: So your fine with a op character who can kill an entire team by pressing the r button, and maybe spell storm(never played him so dont know hotkey), then goes to make popcorn? So sure he can kill boros and is a "Machete" but you gotta work a whole load to own with maar. Boros has no if i press this im dead. Maar definatly does. Atleast maar has a counter.

God: I haven't played the game back then, so i hope it was good :D

 

What I've said, 2 times in this thread alone, is that Boros needs a nerf. However, Maar does not need a buff. The solution to OP heroes is not creating more OP heroes, its is nerfing the existing OP heroes. Please tell me you understood this time!

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Ben: Yes but put into a situation of 1v5, every character should be able to win. It was hard enough playing with maar before all the nerfs and doing that, now i feel he has lost anywhere close to easy ability to do that. So then whats the point of stating ur argument if you have just said a plain and easy counter to maar.

Doom: Yes i do understand and i have the entire time but, this isnt just about killing boros, its the entire thing of hard carries. He was fine before this, and it was only super late game that he could own people. Since sap has no base damage, it has no ability to kill early game what so ever. So unless somehow you fed him alot then there is no way he should dominate you. And yes boros does need a nerf, and for the fact that nothing counters him. So what is the problem of making an EXTREMELY late game carry his old stats so that he could carry at about 50 mins in, when he can easily be countered with a 2k item. Also lets see this, an early game nova does 100 damage a hit give or take. Maar usually does 75 sap now. He used to do about 120. So as you get later on into the game, at about 20 mins in a nova can do 130-250 damage a hit while Maar does 200 a sap. So as you get into late game, a nova will deal about 450-600 damage a hit, every 0.45 seconds dealing about 2000-3000 damage in 2 seconds just by attack commanding. This is the same for other carries. Maar however can deal about 2900 damage if the dont got spell resist, every 2.5 seconds if your lucky. So in general, carries are ridicoulous. So by giving him slightly more damage, which he has to work alot for, and has an easy counter thats reliable is op?

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Ben: Yes but put into a situation of 1v5, every character should be able to win. It was hard enough playing with maar before all the nerfs and doing that, now i feel he has lost anywhere close to easy ability to do that. So then whats the point of stating ur argument if you have just said a plain and easy counter to maar.

Doom: Yes i do understand and i have the entire time but, this isnt just about killing boros, its the entire thing of hard carries. He was fine before this, and it was only super late game that he could own people. Since sap has no base damage, it has no ability to kill early game what so ever. So unless somehow you fed him alot then there is no way he should dominate you. And yes boros does need a nerf, and for the fact that nothing counters him. So what is the problem of making an EXTREMELY late game carry his old stats so that he could carry at about 50 mins in, when he can easily be countered with a 2k item. Also lets see this, an early game nova does 100 damage a hit give or take. Maar usually does 75 sap now. He used to do about 120. So as you get later on into the game, at about 20 mins in a nova can do 130-250 damage a hit while Maar does 200 a sap. So as you get into late game, a nova will deal about 450-600 damage a hit, every 0.45 seconds dealing about 2000-3000 damage in 2 seconds just by attack commanding. This is the same for other carries. Maar however can deal about 2900 damage if the dont got spell resist, every 2.5 seconds if your lucky. So in general, carries are ridicoulous. So by giving him slightly more damage, which he has to work alot for, and has an easy counter thats reliable is op?

 

A: Armor mitigates that damage from Nova and there is no particularly effective counter to Armor whereas gravity edge counters spell resist.

B: Maar can drain about half nova's health with a sap and the cooldown is around .5 seconds lategame.

C: Maar decreases sight radii by a crazy amount - Nova (your example) can even attack at max range thanks to that.

D: Maar's fireball and ice wall deal massive damage to units around twenty units away, something that no auto attack heroes can do.

E: Something like darksteel titan can let you kite an autoattack hero infinitely because they can't catch you.

F: Chilling Artifact decreases aa speed by a percentage, and that percentage applies to any buffs, meaning that if they have 200% attack speed it doubles the attack speed reduction.

G: Maar has a time aura that allows him to cast and attack faster, in addition to moving faster (which is another thing that allows you to kite enemy heroes).

H: Nova has to farm more for damage than Maar does, and Maar farms more efficiently - An argus and gravity edge is enough for a maar to start blasting people to pieces whereas Nova needs to build more items.

I: Nova has to spend item slots on lifesteal, whereas Maar's is inherent (also meaning Maar can build armor using a slot that Nova can't build Spell resist with).

J: Maar's fireball at level 9 is dealing a few hundred damage more than Nova's aa, despite having around 4x the range.

K: Maar can do massive AoE damage from a safe distance whereas Nova has to be in danger to deal single-target damage.

 

Need I go on? I can probably get through the whole alphabet a few times if you'd like to continue posting nonsense. Maar is still a super strong lategame carry.

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A: Armor mitigates that damage from Nova and there is no particularly effective counter to Armor whereas gravity edge counters spell resist.

B: Maar can drain about half nova's health with a sap and the cooldown is around .5 seconds lategame.

C: Maar decreases sight radii by a crazy amount - Nova (your example) can even attack at max range thanks to that.

D: Maar's fireball and ice wall deal massive damage to units around twenty units away, something that no auto attack heroes can do.

E: Something like darksteel titan can let you kite an autoattack hero infinitely because they can't catch you.

F: Chilling Artifact decreases aa speed by a percentage, and that percentage applies to any buffs, meaning that if they have 200% attack speed it doubles the attack speed reduction.

G: Maar has a time aura that allows him to cast and attack faster, in addition to moving faster (which is another thing that allows you to kite enemy heroes).

H: Nova has to farm more for damage than Maar does, and Maar farms more efficiently - An argus and gravity edge is enough for a maar to start blasting people to pieces whereas Nova needs to build more items.

I: Nova has to spend item slots on lifesteal, whereas Maar's is inherent (also meaning Maar can build armor using a slot that Nova can't build Spell resist with).

J: Maar's fireball at level 9 is dealing a few hundred damage more than Nova's aa, despite having around 4x the range.

K: Maar can do massive AoE damage from a safe distance whereas Nova has to be in danger to deal single-target damage.

 

Need I go on? I can probably get through the whole alphabet a few times if you'd like to continue posting nonsense. Maar is still a super strong lategame carry.

 

Let me go over your points Aellectris because Legacy does make decent point about the nerfs to Maar. Simply stating that his posts are nonsense is too normative to state.

 

A: Yes gravity edge does counter spell resist, up to a possible 35% on spell damage. If Nova was to grab spell resist such as spell buffer, the gravity edge would nearly cancel out. Requiring 2 spell resist items or nearly 2 nullifiers of 875 minerals each to have 30% spell resist. That would be 1750 for two nullfiers versus gravity edge at 3600 minerals.

 

B: Not sure about your math about Sap being .5 seconds. The W and E skill for the first sap may be simultaneous. But if you notice, the cooldowns for both are slightly different so that you have to press w first, and e second for your 2nd sap. Therefore .5 seconds is wrong and it is ambiguous because it is based on what items the Maar will have.

 

C: Maar's Q sight passive has been reduced by a significant amount.

 

D: Sure no AA heroes can attack from 20 units away. But that is because they are AA heroes. If casters had to fight close quarters within 4-8 units nobody would play casters. Maar's attacks are dodgeable, and from that distance it is so easy to dodge a heatwave or run from a frost wave.

 

E: I'm not sure about DST because I never use it. But that applies to all heroes who get DST so there is no point in applying this to Maar. If you suggest that Maar from your comments have Argus, Gravity, and some ambiguous armor items and chilling artifact, what slots does Maar have left to buy DST?

 

F: To my knowledge chilling decreases aa speed by 25% plus Maar can apply aura for damage decrease. But 200% weapon speed with chilling would make weapon speed 150% no? How does it double reduction?

 

G: Yes Maar can kite with his aura. However it is harder to chase enemies down as Maar than run away from them IMO. But this point is ambiguous and depends on player style and situation.

 

H: If you suggest that Maar can farm better than Nova, I'm not quite sure.

 

H: Perhaps with gravity edge and argus, even with heatwave it will accrue 240% int dmg plus spell penetration from gravity. But Nova has the early game advantage of last hitting creeps. Maar, as a caster in early game has an opportunity cost of whether to use his skills on enemy hero or creeps. Also to keep in mind, that Maar only has a 430 mana pool with utility talent. Meaning Maar's spam of heatwaves on creeps are not the optimal choice for a Maar when laning.

 

I: Maar's is inherent by pressing W and E at the same time. Nova's is buying the item and auto attacking. And if you say SLOTS, plural, obviously Nova can outheal Maar. There was a huge debate back in the summer about spell leech, this is the only form that Maar has as a caster. Maar has an active role in sustaining his health, whereas Nova is passive.

 

J: Well at level 9 yes it should deal a few hundred extra damage. Given the [time(to cast + time traveled of heatwave]<Nova AA[weapon speed x weapon damage]. Also, "a few hundred damage" is ambiguous.

 

K: Yet Nova has escape mechanics to fight in and out, plus critical strike damage, and a Q skill to finish off heroes.Once Maar is engaged in close quarters battle, 1v1 he has very little mechanics to save him other than his sap and shield. That's almost like saying Darpa can only hit things at close distances, but Null can cast his aoe (swords) from a safe distance. You're comparing casters which essentially have pushing mechanics inherent as INT heroes versus AGI heroes whose role is to DPS/CARRY dealing damage to a single hero.

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