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Snowballing in AoS


Spooky
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I would like to start topic about another meta aspect of AoS. Actually it is one of the aspect I don't really like how it looks like. Lets point out few facts:

- heroes level cap ends at 18

- its very hard to be above more then 3-4 level in compare to enemy team heroes

- its almost impossible to be above more then 3-4 level in compare to your teammates heroes

- u get very small amount of experience when killing enemy hero in compare to experience for killing the creep wave or neutrals camp

- u get money over time without killing anything while u doesn't loosing any money on death

- T3 towers are really hard to take down

- there are ridiculous snowball items which can give huge advantage after one good teamfight

 

So conclusion is quite simple - natural snowballing almost doesn't exist in AoS. There was already topics, posted replays about heroes like Shadow which had awful start and get killed few times early game, had almost no creep kills and still was able to rape entire teams mid-late game. It shouldn't be possible. If some hero would get shut down few times early game he should be very, very behind. Thats an idea behind ganking enemy carry. But it doesn't work here. And another thing about ganking - it isn't very viable actually. Amount of experience u can get this way is too small in my opinion. The same problem is with money u can get this way. Its too small in compare to money from neutrals and income over time. The only way to be significantly ahead with money amount is to get bosses or towers. Ganking one hero doesn't give too much afford. U can jungling instead. 18 level skill cap makes there is very short time when u can be ahead with levels. T3 towers are very hard to take down so u can come back just by defending tower by long enough time and reach the same levels as opponents. It should be possible through good team fight not through hugging towers.

 

Quite different story is about snowball items like Olympic Torch. They are too good on heroes which are hard to kill. They make carry can start carrying from early stages of game, they can make tanks almost unkillable, they can make casters like Vergil to dominate early-mid game. And its all after one good teamfight. There is definitely need to some changes here. Stacks are way too much easy to get. Number of stacks should be increased to at least 15 while advantage for each decreased. On death u may loose half of them but not less then 4. Or there should be different mechanics with getting stacks.

 

So few suggestions:

- increase level skill cap to 25 how it used to be so heroes can be ahead for much longer time

- increase the amount of experience getting from hero kills to allow heroes be able to snowball in natural way and get higher level advantage

- increase money afford for hero kills or bring back some money loose on death how it used to be long time ago. So shutting down some hero few times would mean real shut down. There is natural income overtime anyway and there are items which gives money overtime. However I'm afraid it would make more people RQ from pubs. But in other hand not dying is part of skill, now u loosing some time only.

- redesign current snowball items. Only Ihan Crystal seems fine.

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IMO

-level cap is fine where it is at, i have witnessed many games where one of the teams carries gets fed early and the game is over in 30 min where one team is all level 16-18 and the other team is 11-13. That doesn't happen very often and that is a good thing i think. one team shouldn't win the game just because they got first blood.

-Ecko recently increased the mineral gain for getting kills i think they give like 3-400 early game. While they don't give a ton of experience the get you ahead in items plus the enemy isn't there in lane so you will get ahead in ex as well.

- I agree with your thoughts on snowball items, making them give half as much per stack but making it possible to get twice as many stacks is a step in the right direction.

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I think, that while they are fun and work well for what they are designed to do, in the hands of even a mediocre player like myself they are incredibly strong. If gotten early game, they provide an unnecessary lead against the other team especially for the price. While I think a price increase would be a decent idea, if we lessened the stack properties, as stated before, to maybe half of the current value (+10/10 stacks vs +20/5 stacks) would be a great move in the right direction.

 

However, do you feel that Torch/Valor/Gene would be appropriate for different values? Say a STR hero would have 15/5, a AGI hero 10/10 and an INT hero some other value (can't really figure out a proper value because sometimes, in the hands of say a good Rancor/Raynor player, it could become the same as before?).

 

EDIT: removed recount of last few games playing with the snowballs.

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One thing I think should change is the fact that you get a stack for an assist with the snowball items. You should only get a stack for a kill, assists are too easy to get.

 

nova will get 5 kills ez and abuse the snowball, but ask micro or drake to take 5 kills and keep the stacks for a long time xD

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I like how people always think about the good of the old version and forget the true facts behind every change.

 

Level cap was change to 18 because the snowballing was so horrible in 5.0. More than half of the games, there will be people reaches level 25 while other 9 players are around level 10~12.

 

People rage quit a lot more often back in 5.0 cause once one person is fed. There's no return.

 

When a Tychus got a prye back in 5.0, it does not matter how bad his team is, he can still 1 vs entire team and win.

 

Let's not think about the time-scale LZ that can do over 100000000 attack per second or undying Eurekul that just kill everything that attack him or almighty Balrog that can take a shower under a Stevie.

 

 

Aside from the final tower gains a prye-like effect from last patch, there're no change on its total health or attack range.

 

It is not hard to take it down if you kill least 2 of the tier 3 towers unless you're trying to backdoor all by yourself.

 

 

Losing money upon death is another thing that the 5.0 community complains daily so the change was made for better pub game experience.

 

It also reduces the snowballing when one team makes one mistake and lose one team fight then process to lose the entire game due to it.

 

If I remember correctly, the reward for kills are raised on recent patch. You actually gain more on each kill/assist.

 

Every hero can gain stacks equally easy since you gain one stack by just staying close to the killing to get assist credit.

 

There's no reason for anyone not able to gain stacks unless you choice to solo the entire game.

 

It shouldn't be about how I can get ahead of level but about how can I work with my team to be ahead of enemy team by keeping the lane pushed, and keeping enemy ganker at bay, while work as a team to kill enemy over-extended players.

 

Remember, AoS is a team-orientated MOBA not a solo all-star. The game should be won by team fights and with your teammate not by any individual.

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problem with the the snowball items is if you die and get an assist you still get stacks, so you could die first in a team fight and if your team whips the other you still get full stacks when dead

 

there is pretty much no risk for the items and there supposed to be risky

I think you should only be able to get stacks while your alive, I mean exactly like you said, if your re-spawning and happen to AA all the enemy heros before you died, and your team wipes them out you spawn with full stacks.. that doesn't seem fair IMO

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I noticed (I dont know if some else has lol) that the stacks from snowball items are not removed if you sell the item :P

Its not a bug. Its side effect of feature which makes u not loosing stacks when u accidentally drop the item. But basically it makes that items even more powerful. U can get money back quite fast and spend them on sth else. Its risky, but once u get ahead enough, u won't get killed anyway.

 

 

Level cap was change to 18 because the snowballing was so horrible in 5.0. More than half of the games, there will be people reaches level 25 while other 9 players are around level 10~12.

People rage quit a lot more often back in 5.0 cause once one person is fed. There's no return.

I never experienced that. Anyway it was different environment back then. Now only junglers can be ahead, ganking doesn't give u big reward in experience. Thats why I suggest to increase experience from killing hero little bit. It won't create 12 level differences. 25 level cap would makes game end faster if some team get big advantage. Now enemy team can just defense their base next few waves and reach level cap decreasing the advantage u achieved and u deserve. Anyway it doesn't have to be 25 level cap, it can be at least 20. Always sth.

 

Fed Darpa, Shadow, Balrog and there is also no return now.

 

When a Tychus got a prye back in 5.0, it does not matter how bad his team is, he can still 1 vs entire team and win.

Let's not think about the time-scale LZ that can do over 100000000 attack per second or undying Eurekul that just kill everything that attack him or almighty Balrog that can take a shower under a Stevie.

What it has in common with current topic?

 

Aside from the final tower gains a prye-like effect from last patch, there're no change on its total health or attack range.

It is not hard to take it down if you kill least 2 of the tier 3 towers unless you're trying to backdoor all by yourself.

If u get all T1 and T2 towers quite fast then u need a lot of time to kill T3. It was much easier in previous versions.

 

Losing money upon death is another thing that the 5.0 community complains daily so the change was made for better pub game experience.

It also reduces the snowballing when one team makes one mistake and lose one team fight then process to lose the entire game due to it.

I can agree with u here. Its affect pub experience in wrong way. However I don't know what is wrong with possibility coming back through good team fight? If your team is behind but u were able to win some team fight u should get rewarded. I agree that penalty isn't good way to go, but better reward? If killing hero would give more experience and/or money u would be able to decrease the advantage enemy team has quite much. Of course if u are not already at your level skill cap. It won't make u would reverse whole situation and start snowballing.

 

If I remember correctly, the reward for kills are raised on recent patch. You actually gain more on each kill/assist.

Every hero can gain stacks equally easy since you gain one stack by just staying close to the killing to get assist credit.

There's no reason for anyone not able to gain stacks unless you choice to solo the entire game.

And u don't find it broken? U can reach all stack after one good team fight just by staying close to it. On some heroes advantage is overwhelming after all. Especially AGI carries after getting all stacks from Olympic Torch (free 750 HP).

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Why is snowballing a good thing? Making one side completely unable to do anything at all isn't fun, it only serves to appeal to narcissists.

A 40-minute game should never be decided in the first 10 minutes, so you have a point about making it easier to end the game. But how about, instead of artificially making it harder for the losing team to ever come back (it takes more skill to make a comeback than to get ahead in the first place unless the team comps are screwed up), why not actually give the losing team a chance? Because at the current state of the game, almost every game is such a stomp-fest that lasts far longer than it should. Even if you lower the duration of these stomp-fests, you still won't do much to keep them from happening.

 

Having items specifically designed to give an artificial advantage to the winning team only serves to make raging after the first death justified. Dying a few more times than your laning opponent should never be grounds to allow them to snowball out of proportion and stomp everyone else. That just wastes everyone's time. Teamfights should be decided by teamwork, not by how buffed up everyone is. That said, I still agree that games should end more easily. t3 towers are just ridiculous now.

 

If you make it harder to snowball, then you get a more even game that's funner for both sides. Isn't that the point of the game?

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I like how you can do absolutely nothing in a hero fight and still get assists just by being in the presence of the battle.

 

It sort of makes stacks super easy to obtain...

 

Snowballing items should only limited to kills, but that wouldn't really stop heroes like shadow, nova, zeratul getting stacks.

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