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Get rid of Valors Manifest, Blue Gene, and Olympic Torch


ShadowFlame
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Alright so I thought that in the patch after all the items (including these) were added, these items would be taken out.

Apparently I was mistaken, because these items continue to cause there to be the "star" in games (usually an AA agi carry). Sometimes its maar/null with blue gene, or (the dumbest) Balrog with all of them.

Does anyone else think that these items are stupid. They make the strong heros stronger and the weak heros in a game get no buffs. (by weak and strong heros I mean in that specific game)

Also, I think that this would fix the idiots who go shadow/nova/leo and get machete, machete, machete, machete, leeching saber, and a manifest. Without the manifest this build would not work. BTW, ifn its not obvious I think that that build is complete BS, and works far too well (every time).

Anyone else agree with me?

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Valor's is useless sub-par and Blue Gene gives no survivability stats, though, so I'm not sure about all of them being stupid. Maar used to be powerful with it but his sap is now in-line with other abilities so I think it's mostly balanced. Unix depends on it to be viable.

 

Really, the worst one out of all of these is the torch, because it gives you a lot of free stats that you get naturally after a few kills, which tanky heroes can use to make themselves absolutely ridiculous. Biotron and Balrog can 1v5 with a fully stacked torch. Drake can too with a few partners to mop up for him. After AA heroes start getting pyres, though, the game's over.

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Yes, I agree, but if you kill them they will see themselves in a hard situation because they lost a lot of stats.

 

I for example, always buy Blue Gene on: Rancor, Raynor, Dustin, Brine (sometimes for "troll"), TBone, Maar, Unix, Cyprus, Vergil and Jakk. If I snowball properly, I will be insane in the early game (because 1250 minerals are easy to get) with that extra intelligence. I usually buy Flare Gun too, to kill easily and begin to stack them. The problem is if I do any mistake and I die, I will loose 100 intelligence, and that's a huge problem. If you continue snowballing it will be a huge joke, one shoting ppl with any of that heros...

 

I usually buy Valor's Manifest on: Darpa, it's the only agility character I buy this item, just becuase I don't play Shadow or Nova, I don't like it for Vespus, and if I play Boros I always make a int build to think im not cheating (Impact Dial, SFG, Gravity, Phantom Menace, Ihan, Heated Mantle, (after selling Ihan) Retrofit). I like it when I go Darpa mid, just because I try to gank as soon as possible and begin to snowball. 100 AGi is very useful, at least in terms on weapon speed, but unlike INT chars you will be able to "re-stack" it easily because you're carry. (Oh I forgot I also buy it on Zeratul for obvious reasons :P). On Grunty, Leo and Tosh I just prefer other things.

 

I usually buy Olympic Torch on heros like: Micro, Mandrake, Tychus, Brine, Zeratul (I usually do Manifest+Torch, the armor+hp will make you very difficult to kill specially in the early and mid game), Tosh, Balrog, Starscream, LZ and Vorpal, just for an amazing tankiness.

 

Soooo, yes, snowballing items can be retarded, but at least if you take down the snowballer heros they will have to make more effort to come back to the game (effort with Nova/Shadow lmao).

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I think these items should be more along the lines of a risk vs reward situation. Stay alive and reap the benefits,die and get published for it. As of now there isn't a whole lot of harm for losing ur stacks as it is pretty easy to get them back.

 

I think there should a visible change to see stacks on allies and enemies. It would add another wrinkle to fully stacked hero's...putting a theoretical target on their back.

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1. Yes the stacks are too large and easy to get. Agi heroes at lvl4 with stacked Valor have near max attack speed (-1.31 on Shadow, 1.35 being max)

 

2. They are being awarded too easily in that you get them for kills and assists. So if one team wins a team fight, they all got a fully stacked snowball item each, making a comeback extremely unlikely.

 

3. Making fed/powerful players even more powerful doesn't encourage a fun game for the other team. It makes every subsequent encounter a steeper hill than the previous.

 

IMO these items should be removed. Or make it give 5 stat per kill/assist but max 10 stacks or so.

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IMO the snowball items add another component to the TEAM game in the sence that its like ELIXIR. If you are unix and enemies have elixir they shut your playstyle unless the team ganks them and thus they waste 600 AND you can own your lane. Snowball items are the same IMO. They are something that you get during the early laning stage that calls for the enemy team to either gank you so you lose all stacks or face the consequences later if they let you live with scaled stats.

 

Once we killed(team) the infamous balrogl with 5 stacks of ulti and 5 stacks of ALL the items....yes, before that he raped us hard and I think I saw a godlike somewhere. BUT after killed there was no more balrog....it was more like SHMARLOG ... it was like all that cash on items and the time to build up ulti stacks was wasted and actually since he had no desent items and couldnt gank effectively now, remained behind for the rest of the game.

 

Thereby, I mention the other component of the snowball items: it is a gamble! To make it interesting this items make it so that the cost of the item sucks. There. I said it. Without the stacks this items are garbage. They make it up with the gamble. The POTENTIAL to be good. with 2-3 stacks you get your money`s worth considering the time it took you to get the stacks. With 5 stacks bluegene its almost an argus. BUT even then its another gamble. Theres the POTENTIAL to lose it all and go back to garbage if you die. In a way, its a different way to rely on chance than other items. Still not OP IMO if enemy team realizes who they have to gank and their ability to pull it off.

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The cost of the snowball items is minimal and its not like the stacks is all they do - the items have other properties as well.

Note also that even if they were to die, they can build the stacks up again merely via assists (very easy)

 

The point is that they snowball too quickly and countering a fed hero when underleveled is extremely difficult even without the snowball item unless they play too risky and get themselves killed.

 

Elixir is a poor comparison as its used as a counter to invisibility/burrow and is not a snowball item. You don't get exponentially stronger over time by having bought the Elixir.

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The cost of the snowball items is minimal and its not like the stacks is all they do - the items have other properties as well.

Note also that even if they were to die, they can build the stacks up again merely via assists (very easy)

 

The point is that they snowball too quickly and countering a fed hero when underleveled is extremely difficult even without the snowball item unless they play too risky and get themselves killed.

 

Elixir is a poor comparison as its used as a counter to invisibility/burrow and is not a snowball item. You don't get exponentially stronger over time by having bought the Elixir.

 

I think he was just trying to say that often having and elixir or having a snowball item makes you a target. In pubs where there isnt team play as often it promotes team play to kill that person to take away their advantage.

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You also have to deal with the problem that you can sell or drop these items late game and keep their benefits. If you're already doing well and you make sure you don't die, you could potentially have 6 different items PLUS an extra 100 agi, 100 int, 75 str, and 160 int (ihan).

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Valor's is useless sub-par and Blue Gene gives no survivability stats, though, so I'm not sure about all of them being stupid. Maar used to be powerful with it but his sap is now in-line with other abilities so I think it's mostly balanced. Unix depends on it to be viable.

 

Really, the worst one out of all of these is the torch, because it gives you a lot of free stats that you get naturally after a few kills, which tanky heroes can use to make themselves absolutely ridiculous. Biotron and Balrog can 1v5 with a fully stacked torch. Drake can too with a few partners to mop up for him. After AA heroes start getting pyres, though, the game's over.

 

Unix is perfectly viable without blue gene lol... all he really needs is a yamato and he can kill anyone.

 

@OP

 

I build 4 machetes on shadow then depending how tanky the other team is I go for pyre or timesplitter into a force of entropy.. Valors is not a key component of a 4 machete build.. I mean I've been going 4 machetes on AA heroes for months now and not once did I get a valors on shadow, darpa or toxi.. If i jungle nova I get it. They are strong items and let INT heroes destroy any squishy on the enemy team instantly.

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The stacks on these items on the one hand promote careful play in pub games, but more often than not they promote selfish play. I would be happy to see them go for this reason even though I don't see them as imbalanced or anything like that.

 

Good point. Tanks are discouraged from tanking because if they die they lose all of their stacks.

Though the problem could just be that people are too stupid to know when the team has committed and when to help out their teammates. And when to abandon their teammates, for that matter. (i.e. new leo running into 5 enemies)

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Good point. Tanks are discouraged from tanking because if they die they lose all of their stacks.

Though the problem could just be that people are too stupid to know when the team has committed and when to help out their teammates. And when to abandon their teammates, for that matter. (i.e. new leo running into 5 enemies)

 

though I keep my opinion stated above despite the arguments some post, this is probably the one true argument against snowball items. Maybe a rework of some kind to promote teamwork. Maybe even making stacks add only via assists so you don`t want to just kill but help someone else get a kill. Maybe different ways to add stacks depending on the item(like promote tanking for str, promote spellnuke kills with gene, and dunno what to promote for valors manifest)

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Good point. Tanks are discouraged from tanking because if they die they lose all of their stacks.

Though the problem could just be that people are too stupid to know when the team has committed and when to help out their teammates. And when to abandon their teammates, for that matter. (i.e. new leo running into 5 enemies)

Once I get full stacks on Olympic with some tank hero like Balrog or LZ I'm not discouraged from tanking, quite opposite. I just know that can go in middle of enemy team and I would be fine. I get those stacks to be better tank, not to be more passive to keep them for any price.

 

I think those items are just bad designed. On some heroes they are just ridiculous. Olympic Torch is viable on almost any hero as more stacks u get more hard u become to get killed. Usually I getting that item for majority of AGI heroes and for every STR hero. However Valor's I getting mainly for tanks (13 armor). And both items shows how overpowered tanks can be during mid game, especially Balrog. And in case some heroes buying snowball item gives almost no risk

 

Once we killed(team) the infamous balrogl with 5 stacks of ulti and 5 stacks of ALL the items....yes, before that he raped us hard and I think I saw a godlike somewhere. BUT after killed there was no more balrog....it was more like SHMARLOG ... it was like all that cash on items and the time to build up ulti stacks was wasted and actually since he had no desent items and couldnt gank effectively now, remained behind for the rest of the game.

Stacking all 3 items isn't good idea as it put u behind in some core items. U can get all eventually, but u should get some core items in between while selling fully stacked. Otherwise u become totally useless after first death as u saying

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Once I get full stacks on Olympic with some tank hero like Balrog or LZ I'm not discouraged from tanking, quite opposite. I just know that can go in middle of enemy team and I would be fine. I get those stacks to be better tank, not to be more passive to keep them for any price.

 

This is because you are intelligent. However, in the pub scene, you can't expect everyone to be fully rational about these things. :)

I'm really just guessing that since people in pub games seem to never engage properly, this could be a cause.

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