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Leech Discussion


Chass
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Im quite sure many of you are familiar with just how powerful AA heroes such as Nova and Shadow are with leech late game. It scales extremely well with attack speed and damage. The fact that you need ONE specific item, Executioner's Axe, to "counter" leech is completely warped and fundamentally wrong by design.

 

Now lets look at what leech does. It...

 

-Allows AA heroes to stay in a lane longer, allowing them to farm more. Farm is of course, the most important thing to an AA hero as they would be carrying in damage late game.

 

-Allows AA heroes to take nearly any hero 1 on 1. This is completely fine as this is pretty much the purpose of AA heroes.

 

-Allows a carry, who is supposed to be weak in the early game, who is supposed to be babysitted by someone, to still do fairly well in a lane. This is one of the most bizarre things as heroes like Kerrigan are meant to completely dominate a lane early, throwing glaives to harass an AA hero, yet the hero just leeches back anyway. What this means is that Kerrigan isn't going to be as strong as she should be in comparison to an AA hero and makes her perpetually inferior to an agi AA hero as a pick. It allows a carry to dominate early game which is sort of wrong.

 

Leech is good in ANY occasion, there is no downside to getting it. This forces AA heroes down a certain build with almost certainly a leech item in some form.

 

For tanks, they need to choose between health and spell resist in the early mid-game depending on the heroes on the other team. If they go spell resist, they won't have as much health. If they go health, they won't have much spell resist. Theres a thought process behind items for tanks.

 

On the other hand, AA heroes usually get an early leeching saber since its pretty much the best item going into the late game, with the mineral increments. One of the goals of one of the recent patches was to get heroes to go for other item builds. However, leech is simply too good to be passed up. Early game leech is a must if they want to stay in lane, late game leech is a must if they want to live.

 

I will upload a replay of an inhouse played in SEA earlier today to further substantiate my points soon. Please discuss.

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Leech can be countered with sharpnel as well and leave most AA heroes completely vulnerable to damage ...

 

AA heroes can also be bursted down by casters if they lack spell resist which happens early - mid game until they

get sliptide or a spell resist item.

 

Electric mantle(or really any stun at all) can also partially counter AA heroes as they get temporarily stunned and can't leech.

 

Leech is only useful when the AA hero has decent survivability and damage to ensure they can outleech the damage taken.

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Leech is easily hard countered by barbed and executioner's axe. The problem of course is that you are forced to get these items if any AA hero with high attack damage gets at least one leech item (at least in pub games where you don't have the team coordination to permastun an enemy hero).

 

I would like to see barbed and executioner's removed or at least executioner's and have barbed nerfed quite a bit, while having leech nerfed a bunch as well so that you might have Hive, Sunflare, and HoM doing 10%, Darwin's doing 15% and leech probably removed from Eye of Duran and have EoD get other stats like health, armor, or intelligence.

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Leech can be countered with sharpnel as well and leave most AA heroes completely vulnerable to damage ...

 

AA heroes can also be bursted down by casters if they lack spell resist which happens early - mid game until they

get sliptide or a spell resist item.

 

Electric mantle(or really any stun at all) can also partially counter AA heroes as they get temporarily stunned and can't leech.

 

Leech is only useful when the AA hero has decent survivability and damage to ensure they can outleech the damage taken.

 

Basically all you are saying is that leech is countered by not being able to attack. And AA heroes almost always have enough damage or leech to leech 20+ HP per hit even in the early-mid game.

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Leech can be countered with sharpnel as well and leave most AA heroes completely vulnerable to damage ...

 

AA heroes can also be bursted down by casters if they lack spell resist which happens early - mid game until they

get sliptide or a spell resist item.

 

Electric mantle(or really any stun at all) can also partially counter AA heroes as they get temporarily stunned and can't leech.

 

Leech is only useful when the AA hero has decent survivability and damage to ensure they can outleech the damage taken.

 

 

 

The problem is that your "counters" make attacking completely impossible. There is no difference as to whether or not a carry has leech, shrapnel will still shut them down.

 

Thus Shrapnel cloak is not a counter to leech, it is a counter to autoattacks which leech is dependent on. Which makes it a stupid suggestion for balance as any sort of item like this that you can depend on will have consequences on game balance elsewhere. It doesn't matter whether or not leech is weak or strong, shrapnel shuts it down regardless. That doesn't hide whether or not leech is overpowered.

 

 

I think we just need more healing reduction items. Have an INT item that makes spell damage reduce healing effects by 20%, for example, and a tank item that affects heroes that attack you for 30%. Executioner's axe can remain as it is with 80% reduction on an active (I don't get the point of having a carry item that's meant to counter carries... it's like shadowmourne).

 

That, and early leech could be toned down. The talent might be fine if it weren't for Leeching Sabre... I think the sabre should just give 5% leech or so and maybe 15 weapon damage.

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Ok, I didn't see the replay... everybody doesn't have to stone me for one post....

 

Assumption: The counters I claimed to work against leech is due to the simple mechanics behind AA completely reliant on leech,

and the counter to AA is currently valid to a certain extent.

By removing the main source of leech which is AA, leech is nullified for the duration of the "counter".

I agree, it does not deal with the issue that leech is OP or balanced or UP.

 

IMO, the leech reduction is like a nerf to most AA heroes, as barbed plating combo with leech reduction will make

AA heroes even more fragile unless they build either spell resist or semi tank dps due to their natural low life.

 

AA heroes will need a different advantage over the decrease in leech as their main source of survival in teamfights is leech with

strength items otherwise spamming of AOE/single target spells will make AA heroes retreat due to inability to maintain survival

with dps.

 

Note: This concept is assuming that the items that reduce leech is relatively high and is stackable between heroes...

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