Brine control

[ProfessorInfestor]

Brine is a strong hero with a near guaranteed, lengthy stun. He is not very popular to play however, perhaps because he lacks any AOE or has less carrying capacity than his other fellow tanks Mandrake or Balrog. He is admittingly dull, but he is very capable of getting his team kills and some of his own as well.

 

Yet any Brine player would probably resent Brine's difficulty of control. It is one thing to be struggling against difficult opponents but another to have to combat Brine's limits.

 

Brine's Q makes him forget his target, regardless of what the Q was used on. If you use Q on an enemy hero but a creep is closer to Brine, he will immediately stop moving towards that hero and attack the creep. If there are two or more creeps adjacent to Brine, he will switch targets. It is very annoying for a hero with such limited range to be spamming right clicks past the enemy hero to ensure Brine doesn't fall to his attention deficiency on a creep.

 

His melee attack has very little range. it is frustrating to be unable to hit a moving opponent. He can use his Impale to stop the opponent, but must sacrifice Impale's damage to do so. He can use his Q to slow the enemy, but unless Brine has a sizeable amount of attack speed, Brine's attack will not be able to complete and he will just end up twitching behind the enemy, dealing no damage.

Worse still, this really messes with his ultimate, which requires an attack animation. He can't use it on running opponents unless he has a certain speed, a certain attack speed, or wastefully using his Impale! that is poor synergy. Just to use his basic skills he requires items then.

 

What really annoys me is when I use Q during Nether Assassin to slow the enemy because my attack animation won't complete (not like that would allow the R to land without nitrogen retrofit) and then that causes Brine to change targets and waste his Ultimate on a creep. It ruins him, makes him unpopular to play as, and makes gameplay a struggle with controls.

 

I know for a fact people have suggested to alter his lack of range and attention. It's bothered me enough to put it in words. I apologize though that I have not thought of any fixes, and making him a ranged hero is a poor way to go about this.

 

I understand that I could just always buy a Small Hadron collider to be able to get all I can get from Brine's skillset. But you know that is retarded.

 

EDIT: Eliwan's suggestion has given me inspiration. How about that Adaptive Carapace would give Brine a temporary range increase to say a max of 2? So upon using a skill, Brine would get a range of 2 for the duration Adaptive Carapace is active. This would help Brine specifically only when he needs it, and the name of the skill is really fitting.

This does not fix Brine's Q targeting complication however, and a range of 2 would probably make the problem even worse.

 

So as for the Q problem, when Brine uses his Q or enters Nether Assassin, make hold fire automatically activated. This in addition to the aforementioned change would help prevent misfires and allow Brine to damage on the move without having Martyr or Constricting Slime.

 

Another related remedy would be to change Impale from dealing damage by Brine's movement, not the impaled heroe's movement. this would still limit Brine's pull distance in his combo but at least he would be able to get all his damage in.

 

Conclusion:

After playing another game where an assassination was botched because of Brine's lack of control, I think the most currently needed alteration is to simply let Nether Assassin automatically activate Hold Fire. This is the most elegant and needed change that helps a lot to ease Brine's control.

 

Also, seeing as how so many are contributing their builds, my build is similar to everyone's posted. If the enemy's damage source is attack, I get Sunflare, Barbed platings, and electric mantles. If they are casters, then I go for a speed/spell resist build with Soul Silver and Spell buffer. I get positioning items such as impact dial and warp shard depending on the need for tankiness at the time.

However, I do what I call "Owl's" build since he was the first on the forums to suggest the massive burst given by Black Hole Magnum. Any damage contributed by Brine centralizes on this item in Owl's build. It is a shame that the item doesn't suck in heroes.

[Itsthatguy]

So much of this has happened to me.

His AA seems to have a delay, thus attacking a moving target,he has to be in range for about .5 seconds, so if the target is moving, you miss, and this has cost me kills many many times

My god, using Q or E ability, and switching targets right when that happens wasting an ultra is SO ANNOYING.

I find brine can be used very well in 1v1 situations (but requires alot of skill) to play.

Of course doin this would have to sacrifice a large chunk of his hp (about 2000 thus making him only a semi-tank).

I like Small Hadron + impact dial.

ANOTHER THING is annoying is that: When impale is in effect, Tower cannons can not damage the enemy. There are many occasions where i've impaled someone in cannon (early game tower divers), and the tower attacks the enemy but deals 0 damage. That is rather annoying.

[ProfessorInfestor]

So much of this has happened to me.

His AA seems to have a delay, thus attacking a moving target,he has to be in range for about .5 seconds, so if the target is moving, you miss, and this has cost me kills many many times

My god, using Q or E ability, and switching targets right when that happens wasting an ultra is SO ANNOYING.

I find brine can be used very well in 1v1 situations (but requires alot of skill) to play.

Of course doin this would have to sacrifice a large chunk of his hp (about 2000 thus making him only a semi-tank).

I like Small Hadron + impact dial.

ANOTHER THING is annoying is that: When impale is in effect, Tower cannons can not damage the enemy. There are many occasions where i've impaled someone in cannon (early game tower divers), and the tower attacks the enemy but deals 0 damage. That is rather annoying.

 

Those are indeed other problems with Brine, he's quite the bug magnet (he's a roach too, get it >_>)

Now that I look into it, Brine's the only strength hero with no AOE. No wonder eckol buffed his ult by almost 50%.

Small Hadron and Impact dial is a good combo to fix Brine's limited range and extend his drag. It is almost like imitating Micro but for over 5000 minerals

[Itsthatguy]

Those are indeed other problems with Brine, he's quite the bug magnet (he's a roach too, get it >_>)

Now that I look into it, Brine's the only strength hero with no AOE. No wonder eckol buffed his ult by almost 50%.

Small Hadron and Impact dial is a good combo to fix Brine's limited range and extend his drag. It is almost like imitating Micro but for over 5000 minerals

Personally, i go an AA build

(Start with impact dial, and sell it once you are try to obtain you final item)

Small hadron (for stun and teleport, stun enables me to imapale)

Shadowmorne (clone enemy so they get owned by themselves as impale in effect)

Eletrical Mantle (if enemy attacks you, extra damage, and an extra 1 second stun duration

Executioner Axe: Limit their healing

Barb Armor: After you limit their healing, they continue to attack you (survived somehow) they slowly kill themselves

Pyre or other item: (Just added attack speed and damage bonus)

 

Other option is

Small hallon//shadowmourne//eletrical// 1 Arc bounds (primarily Crit//attack speed), Cerebro (reduce Cd, will nearly give u another impale when first impale is over), and needed item (Sunflare or khali watever floats yo boat)

 

They particular strong vs AA carries, Warp in, Impale, Acid strike and Final, and if you have cerebro, Impale again, and acid strike again. xD altho it requires SO MUCH SPAM, and requires alot more skill to do (i find myself messing up alot) altho it makes brine very good at escapeing (having 4 things to escape, impact dial , warp shard, adrenaline, and assassin.) :D (impale can help too!)

[Eliwan]

I would love to see a buff to Brine's Adaptive Carapace:

"Whenever Brine uses an ability, he gains bonus Physical and Spell Damage Resistance as well as bonus Movement Speed for 4 seconds."

+6/9/12/15% Physical and Spell Damage Resistance. +4/6/8/10% Movement Speed.

 

And his attack range from whatever it is to like 2.

[Doom]

Brine Tentacle has a strong int scaling (150, I believe), so int builds on him are not that ludicrous. Open with Flare Gun, can take out a full hp tank by level 7. Argus, Nitrogen, Sunflare then pure tank, as nothing else int really helps you.

[ProfessorInfestor]

Personally, i go an AA build

(Start with impact dial, and sell it once you are try to obtain you final item)

Small hadron (for stun and teleport, stun enables me to imapale)

Shadowmorne (clone enemy so they get owned by themselves as impale in effect)

Eletrical Mantle (if enemy attacks you, extra damage, and an extra 1 second stun duration

Executioner Axe: Limit their healing

Barb Armor: After you limit their healing, they continue to attack you (survived somehow) they slowly kill themselves

Pyre or other item: (Just added attack speed and damage bonus)

 

Other option is

Small hallon//shadowmourne//eletrical// 1 Arc bounds (primarily Crit//attack speed), Cerebro (reduce Cd, will nearly give u another impale when first impale is over), and needed item (Sunflare or khali watever floats yo boat)

 

They particular strong vs AA carries, Warp in, Impale, Acid strike and Final, and if you have cerebro, Impale again, and acid strike again. xD altho it requires SO MUCH SPAM, and requires alot more skill to do (i find myself messing up alot) altho it makes brine very good at escapeing (having 4 things to escape, impact dial , warp shard, adrenaline, and assassin.) :D (impale can help too!)

 

a very interesting offensive build I will try it.

 

and Eliwan that is not a bad idea but at most I want a reworking of Brine, not a buff.

[Itsthatguy]

a very interesting offensive build I will try it.

 

and Eliwan that is not a bad idea but at most I want a reworking of Brine, not a buff.

Note: The build is countered by team work XD. Hence i use it in pubs. (no aoe of course)

 

-Edit- I forgot to mention, the build i listed massive counters grunty :D (u hit him and impale stun him, his shadow iwll get 3 - 5 hits depending on attack speed, and with passive and point blank, deals like 1000 just from passive alone in 3 seconds. :D

[ProfessorInfestor]

Note: The build is countered by team work XD. Hence i use it in pubs. (no aoe of course)

 

-Edit- I forgot to mention, the build i listed massive counters grunty :D (u hit him and impale stun him, his shadow iwll get 3 - 5 hits depending on attack speed, and with passive and point blank, deals like 1000 just from passive alone in 3 seconds. :D

 

I see I see, ye that build is definetily more of an assassin role, hence "Nether Assassin" haha. So team battling would somewhat compromise its combo

A support tank with an assassin ultimate. Still, a very strong ultimate, hmmmm

[Eliwan]

I don't think that Brine needs any reworks. o_0" He's fine where he is, imo.

[Arson]

IMO it's not that big of a deal if brine can't pull his ultimate off. He was made to be a tank/iniator, so what if you can't do any damage.

The only problem I have with him is his mana pool, it's a tad bit low. I'm having to buy 5 or so mana potions every time I shop.

 

Anyways, my end builds are:

 

Support: in no particular order, 'cept soul silver first

Soul Silver

Superheated Mantle

Shrapnel Cloak

Nitrogen Retrofit

Electric Mantle

Small Hadron Collider

 

Offensive:

Soul Silver

Superheated Mantle

Nitro Retrofit

Argus

Gravity Edge

Small Hadron Collider

 

Having a set build is never a good thing.

 

No gamebreaking problems with brine atm. That xtra movement speed on the passive would be nice, but it isn't really necessary when you've got a slow and the W

[ProfessorInfestor]

IMO it's not that big of a deal if brine can't pull his ultimate off. He was made to be a tank/iniator, so what if you can't do any damage.

The only problem I have with him is his mana pool, it's a tad bit low. I'm having to buy 5 or so mana potions every time I shop.

 

Anyways, my end builds are:

 

Support: in no particular order, 'cept soul silver first

Soul Silver

Superheated Mantle

Shrapnel Cloak

Nitrogen Retrofit

Electric Mantle

Small Hadron Collider

 

Offensive:

Soul Silver

Superheated Mantle

Nitro Retrofit

Argus

Gravity Edge

Small Hadron Collider

 

Having a set build is never a good thing.

 

No gamebreaking problems with brine atm. That xtra movement speed on the passive would be nice, but it isn't really necessary when you've got a slow and the W

 

Yea the mana pots with Brine are a hassle and hampers his low mineral income.

And what good is it having an ultimate that is difficult to get off? Or rather why is his Q so clunky? As long as Brine has this ultimate that deviates from his tank/initiator role as you say but can don offensive builds such as yours, his ultimate should at least be more tailored to human use. Brine reveals himself to be then a contradictory hero with the most important skill of any hero, the fancy ultimate, unsynergistic from his 'role' and other skills.

 

as for your build it is quite nice I see a common motif of mobility items such as small Hadron and the soul silver works quite nicely with the W. I know this is quite noob question but in a teamfight is superheated mantle worth it or do you buy it mainly to help farm?

[Arson]

There are certain times when I don't keep the superheated mantle late game. That is when my team is beyond dead and I have to buy something to turn it around or when my team doesn't have any aoe to clear creep waves.

 

Superheated Mantle works really well with nitrogen retrofit, giving an aura of slow and also helps you pick off those pesky cloaking squishy heroes (zera, ghost, anyone with phase cloak, etc.)

[ProfessorInfestor]

I have edited my opening post with suggestions, do give me your thoughts people

[Spooky]

What really annoys me is when I use Q during Nether Assassin because my attack animation won't complete (not like that would allow the R to land without nitrogen retrofit) and then that causes Brine to change targets and waste his Ultimate on a creep. It ruins him, makes him unpopular to play as, and makes gameplay a struggle with controls.

This! Happened to me many times. Really annoying. I think when Brine is under his ulti effect AA should be removed like with Rancor when he is invisible. It shouldn't proc without right click on specific opponent. His Q messed up current target, but I get used to it. I guess it happen after using every ability in this game. Maybe it get fixed someday.

[thomulf]

I often find myself deselecting him while trying to use Q, but apart from that it's not such a big problem. You can use nether assassin->impale, then drag him back almost all the way, when the stun is about to end move towards him so you can get a Q off.

 

Perhaps he could have +1 range while using nether assassin, and "Hold Fire" activated.

[ProfessorInfestor]

I often find myself deselecting him while trying to use Q, but apart from that it's not such a big problem. You can use nether assassin->impale, then drag him back almost all the way, when the stun is about to end move towards him so you can get a Q off.

 

Perhaps he could have +1 range while using nether assassin, and "Hold Fire" activated.

 

Have you tried -hl? Furthermore, how can you use nether assassin on a moving target other than having a significant speed advantage (adrenaline rush and Q is not enough most of the time, especially since Brine must pause to use Adrenaline Rush)? In my eyes it is a great problem, as these basic functional problems make Brine look like an underdeveloped game piece, especially with all the bugs he is associated with.

[ProfessorInfestor]

This! Happened to me many times. Really annoying. I think when Brine is under his ulti effect AA should be removed like with Rancor when he is invisible. It shouldn't proc without right click on specific opponent. His Q messed up current target, but I get used to it. I guess it happen after using every ability in this game. Maybe it get fixed someday.

 

this is not a bad way to go about this, a simple way to fix Brine's misfiring. I also want them to look at Q changing targets (an adaptable problem that takes more concentration than necessary) and Brine's inability to hit moving targets. Other melee Str heroes such as Micro, Mandrake, and Balrog don't have this problem because constricting slime and pounce are stronger slows (which allow basic attacks to land and allow complete usage of their damage output/skill set) and Mandrake has Martyr.

Once again, Brine has to use Impale just to hit the enemy, sacrificing his Impale damage to do so

 

sorry for double post

[Eliwan]

"So as for the Q problem, when Brine uses his Q or enters Nether Assassin, make hold fire automatically activated. This in addition to the aforementioned change would help prevent misfires and allow Brine to get around having no Martyr or Constricting Slime."

Not when he uses his Q. I like to use my Q in laning to get last-hits. If it made me hold fire I'd be so screwed.

Though with Nether Assassin totally. I don't get why it isn't that way. =X

I mean, Unix's Peristalsis puts him on Hold Fire and his attack is disabled during Peristalsis anyway...

[ProfessorInfestor]

"So as for the Q problem, when Brine uses his Q or enters Nether Assassin, make hold fire automatically activated. This in addition to the aforementioned change would help prevent misfires and allow Brine to get around having no Martyr or Constricting Slime."

Not when he uses his Q. I like to use my Q in laning to get last-hits. If it made me hold fire I'd be so screwed.

Though with Nether Assassin totally. I don't get why it isn't that way. =X

I mean, Unix's Peristalsis puts him on Hold Fire and his attack is disabled during Peristalsis anyway...

 

I guess Q activating hold fire is beneficial depending on how one is comfortable playing. I personally use the attack key (a) very often when issuing commands so hold fire would be easily deactivated.

It is just that when you are chasing an enemy hero, and Q them to damage/slow them down to catch up to them, Brine will automatically run to the nearest target to attack, which most likely isn't that same hero. Unless you are spamming right click on the enemy hero, Brine will still take the smallest of turns no matter how diligent the clicking. So then using Q more than likely lengthens the distant between the opponent and Brine than closing the distance unless there is absolutely no other aggro. This would be mitigated if Adrenaline Rush had no animation but that may be overpowered then; nevertheless still another way to treat Brine ADD.

[croc]

Personally when I gank as brine, or just my ulti in early-mid game especially, as the damage is important then, I ulti, pull from being burrowed, attack for ulti damage a buy before Pull finishes, then use a on them.

[ProfessorInfestor]

attack for ulti damage a [sec] before Pull finishes, then use a on them.

 

but how do you manage to get all the damage you can inflict and distance pulled with Impale if Brine must turn around to use his Ultimate? Perhaps Impale can be changed to "damage is only inflicted if Brine is moving, not the target being pulled."

[croc]

In fact I don't get all the damage. :( I'm saying it's still pretty reliable but you have to sacrifice a bit of damage. Even if I do make a mistake impact diel has a shor cd :D

[thomulf]

You only lose like 0.5 seconds of damage to turn around and deal, impale isn't Brine's main damage ability, I think you should stop complaining about this- brine is fine, apart from his ulti. Increase attack range by 1 when using ulti, problem solved.

[FruitNinja]

You only lose like 0.5 seconds of damage to turn around and deal, impale isn't Brine's main damage ability, I think you should stop complaining about this- brine is fine, apart from his ulti. Increase attack range by 1 when using ulti, problem solved.

 

This is a lazy excuse for keeping sloppy controls in the game.