Jump to content

Yamoto: almost always better than Argus?


Doom
 Share

Recommended Posts

Lately, I've starting replacing Argus with Yamato Reactor in almost all my builds. Why? Well, lets Compare:

 

Argus:

 

Total Cost: 4125

Stats: 100 int

Unique: you deal extra 20% spell damage

Active: None

 

 

 

Yamato:

 

Total Cost: 4700

Stats: 50 int, 25 str, 25 agi, 15% cooldown reduction

Unique: none

Active: Increase your Time Scale and Spell Damage by 25% for 8 seconds. 60 second cooldown.

 

 

In summary, Yamato costs a total of 575 minerals more, has 50 less int, but has an extra 25 str and agility, and 15% cooldown reduction. I'd say stats are definitely in Yamato's Favor. Argus has a permanent 20% spell damage amplify, while Yamato gives you an extra 25% Timescale and spell damage for a limited time.

 

 

Used at the correct moment, Yamato is significantly better than Argus, increasing both movement, attack speed, regeneration, lowering cooldowns and dealing more spell damage. Yes, argus is theoretically better in long term fights, because you deal more damage after Yamato goes on cooldown, but really, Yamato allows you to run away, or chase, increases your DPS, and lowers you cooldowns allowing you to cast more spells. It's a more burst version of spell damage, as opposed to Argus's relative DPS, so it would probably benefit bursters with long cooldowns such as cyprus more than regular int spammers such as Dustin (ALTHOUGH..... he will be able to deal much more damage with smaller ult cooldowns past level 16, therefore more damage.....)

 

Ultimately, you should have both in a good spell damage centered build, but I think that Yamato should be the bigger priority.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While you make very valid points, and i agree with alot of it. The building block builds for damage is slightly more favoritable for argus. Also for Yamato, when activating it, it shows an animation, meaning enemies using it, a more skilled player can predict a final is coming, or some type of major spell damage. Although used correctly, yamato is better than argus. I favor Argus tho, just because I spam spells more often, and don't want to be as predictable with yamato, or use an active on the item. I'm not really good with actives

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the topic of Yamato.. I love using it in combination with HoM. From memory activating both of them gives +85% attackspeed, +40% movement speed, and if you have a pyre then (I think) it would be doing an extra 25% spell damage in the passive. Overall gives some nice (and a little bit anit-tank) dps for caster type heroes such as Cow, Jakk or Raynor. ^_^

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just had a scary thought of Yamato on Crackling...

 

His ult gives a static movespeed bonus so it won't be affected by %move_speed increases but it would be affected by timescale...

 

So base speed 3 +0.4 + 4 = 7.4 + (3 * 0.5 (haste)) = 8.9 * 1.25 (yamato) = effective speed of 11.125.

W deals 100% WD as spell damage. BHM deals 150% WD as spell damage. With Yamato, that yields 312.5% WD as spell damage. If you get 400 WD (completely doable), then W adds 1250 spell damage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How can you compare an apple to an orange?

 

Yamato is an item that favors hero that has need for time scale, short-term damage boost, and a bit more HP.

 

Argus is a team based item that increase the spell and skill damage of your whole team by 20%.

 

Ohgwad, I need to kick RedHydra's ass!

 

Same goes to all other items like :IsomorphicPyre: & :ContaminationShard:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How can you compare an apple to an orange?

 

Yamato is an item that favors hero that has need for time scale, short-term damage boost, and a bit more HP.

 

Argus is a team based item that increase the spell and skill damage of your whole team by 20%.

 

Same goes to all other items like :IsomorphicPyre: & :ContaminationShard:

 

Since when does argus affect the whole team? One item is raw burst damage while the other provides more utility if we're talking apples and oranges.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My late game builds on spell casters usually include both of these items unless I am building more towards utility. The order in which I get these items in relation to each other, and in relation to other items depends on the specific hero, and how the game is going. I almost never rush either item unless I am in a situation where I can be super greedy. Ihan is too good of a first item.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reactor is sick on zera once u have revolver + pyre + valors stacks + phantom menace. With right talents he has above 5 movespeed (closer to 6 when active), max wep speed, insane phys/spell dps, and short cds. The active grants substantial and varied utility. Need to kill tank with barbed and armor? Activate in bubble and backstab. Need to chase and ult is on cd? Activate for 25% buffs chase and ult him if need be or someone else. Need escape? TS buff helps lower debuffs on u/speed regen/ planar cd. Move speed is huge for zera's ability to chase while aaing and more importantly increases chance of landing perfect planars on self everytime. Love this item.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I prefer Yamato on hybrid caster/dps heroes; especially ones that deliver spell damage via AA. Argus is better designed for straight-up caster support heroes such as Cyprus.

 

Actually, I'd say Cyprus would benefit more from Yamato, because a)

 

shorter cooldown on ult, and more burst damage from ult (25% vs 20%)

 

b) Way shorter cooldown on blink and second wall, can easily do it twice in duration of active, or blink away faster, meaning the jumping in and killing a squishy hero is much less likely to be a suicide mission.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lets work it out mathematically:

 

x is your current Int. y is the Int scaling on your spell.

 

Yamato damage = (x + 50) * y * 1.25

Argus damage = (x + 100) * y * 1.20

 

When will the two values be equal?

(x + 50) * y * 1.25 = (x + 100) * y * 1.20

 

y cancels out on both sides. Factor out your parentheses.

1.25x + 67.5 = 1.20x + 120

 

Move like factors to each side of the equation

0.05x = 52.5

 

Isolate your x

x = 1050

 

The two values become equal when Int is 1050. Above this value, Yamato wins out. Below this value, Argus wins out. So, if you're talking about straight spell damage, Argus's 50 Int advantage carries a lot of weight unless the benefit of 50 more int is less than the benefit of 5% more overall. Now if you want to take sDps into account, the average spell damage and timescale that Yamato gives is +3% and the formula becomes:

 

(1.03x + 51.5) * 1.03 * 1.15(CDR) =

1.22x + 61 = 1.20x + 120

 

0.02x = 59

x = 2950

 

2950 Int is the break even point here. Above this, Yamato is better. Below, Argus is.

 

Conclusion: Regarding spells with Int scaling, Argus is better both in terms of average sDPS and burst DPS because you can never get enough Int for Yamato to win out in either race. What Yamato gives for its active duration has to be balanced against the normal benefit you get when it's on CD.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mathematically and logically correct, yes. But there is also the issue of cooldowns, both on your blink (a difference in seconds can be a difference between life and death) and on your ult (shorter ult cooldown CAN= more ults made = more overall damage dealt). Considering that few items have more CDR than Yamato (Just Agressor's Guide, CoA, and Chilling Artifact, none of which are your average cyprus items), you have omitted a potentially important factor in total sDps. And while everyone tires to be all ninja and find lone heroes to snipe off, sometimes you just gotta blink closer to enemy heroes to dispatch your target than would be totally safe, and a faster blink away, as well as extra timescale, and more str plays a large role in keeping you alive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In terms of how much damage you do when you can do damage: Argus is practically always better.

 

In terms of utilitarian usage: Yamato is practically always better. It gives more stuff besides Spell Damage.

 

Also, Argus is only better for Spell Damage than Yamato if the spell scales with INT [shadow's Shade scales with W.D. and deals Spell damage], so there are some exceptions to this.

 

Though for those heroes it's pretty obvious you don't need an Argus Crystal. P=

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I could see a Cain with Argus, Yamato, Pyre, and then either AS items or tanky items doing quite well... With all the spell damage from his ultimate, frostbite, and pyre, Yamato and Argus would really increase his damage as well as Yamato allowing him to get more shots off/decrease CD on his E and Q. Other items that might benefit is spell AA would be Sliptide Scythe for the agility and 42 spell damage per AA, Stun Baton, and Lightning Rod... Though obviously he would need some tanky items rather than most of the previous mentioned items.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...