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i dont think its normal -_-


wxwHysteria
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Ok let's resume it fast : i make an inh recently and i was laning vs a shadow /rory combo : we COMPLETELY dominate their lane and shadow die and dont farm ( he has 7 creep when majority of other players have at least 20 creeps , and he was at 15 creeps when other players have between 30 and 50 creeps ) and he dont make any kills ( he dont have any assist too cause his lane partner dont make any kill and he dont gank on the rest of the map ) . the rest of the early / midd game was like that ( and his team was behind cause the rest of the lanes were , in majority , at our advantage ( kills and creep killed )) but , late game , shadow completely rape all of us .

 

 

i understand the role of hero like shadow but for me , HARD carry , are supposed to do a good early / midd game to be so powerful late game . they are not supposed fail the early / midd game , die , make no kills , dont farm and just wait the late game to roxxx ( even alone vs 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 enemy) .

And dont answer me he need his team cause one time he die 1v5 and he was surprised to die ( even if he kill 1 hero before , and an other of our hero survive with 1 % hp) ( -_- ) ...... dont worry he rapes us 1v3 or 1v4 a lot of time in other occasions .

 

Inh are based on teamplay : if you have just 1 hero ( shadow) that can rape , at least , 3 enemy heros alone without being in danger ( his life is never under 50 % of his max life )) : what can you do if he fight with his team ??

 

I think hero like shadow shouldn't be able to kill almost an entire team alone EVEN MORE when he completely fail all the early / midd game : wtf ?? is that what you call a hard carry ?? you can play like a no0b and wait the late game to be almost unstopable ? ( and completely unstopable with your team ( the shadow's team lost 1 or 2 hero max while shadow kill the enemy team ) ... . I accept to see some heros ( like shadow ) being really good late game BUT its not normal when you completely fail your early / midd game -_- : or rename them " easy carry for beginners" ( they are hard carry if they need to play well to access to their power late game )

 

 

there is some counters ( " ho thanks Pek ( aka God ) !!! " ) but if something can be counterable that does not mean it still normal / acceptable / not op ( some things are easily counterable in aos and some other are difficult to counter and some other things are really really hard to counter ( the difficulty requiered to counter it begin to be not reasonable/ normal / acceptable / balanced ) )

 

 

I think this problem is especially important for shadow : i see a lot of hard dps ( darpa , nova , tosh , ect ) make a lot of kills and survive ( yea you can run into the enemy team and make 1 kill and you die right after : its not supposed to be like that in inh ) late game with their team BUT NEVER alone 1v4 or 1v5 and dont even care to die cause your life is always between 60 % and 100 % of your max hp ! or shadow loses 1v4 or 1v5 1 fight on 5 but he kill 1-2-3 heros before diying ( maybe nova if the gap between her items and the enemy team items is really hugh , but at this point its just gg )

 

 

Shadow can almost kill an entire team alone so , if he dont play like rambo ( Rambo's Style aka " hooooooo yea im unstoppable and greedy and i run into the enemy team and dont wait the rest of my team no matters the danger and my life " style) but with his team ( i let the tanky hero tank , wait that some enemy hero waste their spell on them , ectectect ) its over .

 

=============> that dont mean dps carry are op generally : dont deform the meaning of that post. The question of that post that i want you to answer is " do you thinks its normal to be so powerful / dangerous for the enemy team late game when you completely fail the early / midd game " ? ( no kill , no assist , low number of creep farmed , die some times ) . I think that this kind of hero should be allowed to be that's mutch powerful only if you manage to make a good early / midd game ( at least good early OR good midd game )

 

 

p.s : sorry for my english :)

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yea ... schrapnel just retard your death by some second .... but if he is not totally idiot he will vortex or run away ... and come back just after ( even if you have 2 schrapnel in your team )

 

 

 

 

Did you have a tank with barbed plating and Executioners axe to stop his leeching effects?

 

i admit : no

 

Was your team out of position and your squishy damage dealers ended up dying?

 

not especially

 

Finally, did you target him first or did he happen to clean you and your team up after you were weakened by his other teams?

 

when he solo us 1v3 or 1v4 we spamm everything that we can on him ( schrapnel / and some stuns ) and sometine he dont wait the end of a teamfight : he just go out of the tree , says " what's up guys ? " and start to kill ...

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Yea...shadow is so annoying late game. I think main problem is, that he untargetable. Now there are so many creeps around and you can't a-click on shadow....

Today was very interesting pub with shadow: we were losing because of fed shadow. We were defending till late game. Our team: Cow(me), balrog, egon, rancor, (our shadow raged in mid game). Enemy team: shadow, bio, balrog, kerrygan(not very good one). Shadow had with final build over 3k HP, 560WD+ crits with max AS.... But than i got my full full items and was able to kill him. My combo was: use HSG->SFG->shrapnel->all my skills. And it worked!!! My build: full stacked ihan(selled), SFG, shrapnel cloak, HSG, EM, shadowmourne, item which gives -25% AS, armor and 20%CDR.

So you need stalker, drake, cow, raynor maybe rancor to burst down shadow. Nothing will help from him....

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Shadow's early game is terrible if you abuse the fact that he is melee. He DOES have gap closers in all of his skills, though, so he's probably the most difficult melee hero to escape.

 

But if you have any CC on your team, use that on the shadow lane. You can shut him down early and he will never get to the point where he can solo a team.

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Shadow's early game is terrible if you abuse the fact that he is melee. He DOES have gap closers in all of his skills, though, so he's probably the most difficult melee hero to escape.

 

But if you have any CC on your team, use that on the shadow lane. You can shut him down early and he will never get to the point where he can solo a team.

Shadow has terrible early game? Lol no... You can just sit near creeps and use shade for last hits and no counter for this except maybe jack's mine field.

Most difficult hero to escape? Again incorrect.... Vortex is one of the best CC skill. You can scrape any projectives like Cain's ult, Roy's stun and molo, raynor ult and others. Your shade is also good escape mechanism because it is small blink!!! I used V wall with cow to stop shadow - he just used shade and jumped over wall!!! Shadows hero passive is also good escape mech. None can catch you!!! Even ult is escape mechanism - use and run...

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Shadow has terrible early game? Lol no... You can just sit near creeps and use shade for last hits and no counter for this except maybe jack's mine field.

Most difficult hero to escape? Again incorrect.... Vortex is one of the best CC skill. You can scrape any projectives like Cain's ult, Roy's stun and molo, raynor ult and others. Your shade is also good escape mechanism because it is small blink!!! I used V wall with cow to stop shadow - he just used shade and jumped over wall!!! Shadows hero passive is also good escape mech. None can catch you!!! Even ult is escape mechanism - use and run...

he meant to escape from.
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Shadow has terrible early game? Lol no... You can just sit near creeps and use shade for last hits and no counter for this except maybe jack's mine field.

Most difficult hero to escape? Again incorrect.... Vortex is one of the best CC skill. You can scrape any projectives like Cain's ult, Roy's stun and molo, raynor ult and others. Your shade is also good escape mechanism because it is small blink!!! I used V wall with cow to stop shadow - he just used shade and jumped over wall!!! Shadows hero passive is also good escape mech. None can catch you!!! Even ult is escape mechanism - use and run...

 

I implied that Shadow has 5 gap closers. Do you not read?

 

Poke him from a distance. Don't send a melee hero on the long lane (if the shadow/rory is on their short lane). If the enemy is on their long lane, have your mid gank. If Shadow thinks he is boros and just sits in the middle of the creep wave, you should attack him or use a spell.

 

You have to have a good team comp, don't just pick whatever you feel like playing. If you don't have a single stun or slow on your team you are going to lose no matter what.

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In the sense of comparative balance with other MOBAs, a hard carry is deemed such because it carries HARDER than an alternative character, not because it's harder i.e more difficult to carry with them.

 

They are meant to have highest hero kill count and ensure team victory provided they get to do their job. Accordingly, carries are primarily designed to have AA augmenting skills, ala Boros critical strike or Zera backstab, which is offset by either poor chasing/disable skills or to a lesser degree, farm ability, or also a low hp pool.

 

Here you have a hard carry, shadow, who arguably is the strongest team wiping carry, being able to engage multiple targets in his ulti. He has an aoe farming skill that scales with weapon damage, a initiation/slowing aoe disable spell, an innate inescapable chase ability, and an ultimate that renders him untargetable. In earlier versions, shadow was considered balanced due to early game vulnerability despite his late game dps potential, this is an inherent design with most AA carries.

 

The current metagame makes it such that he gets a decently sized hp pool early game due to cheap hp/agi items and abusable leech effects. The only true way to counter shadow is to complete deny any farm opportunity, I.e a strong push comp that leaves enemy team hiding in base after the first 20 minutes with no chance to jungle.

 

Then again, you have AA heroes who do more burst damage than most casters in early game which throws any semblance of balance out the window.

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In the sense of comparative balance with other MOBAs, a hard carry is deemed such because it carries HARDER than an alternative character, not because it's harder i.e more difficult to carry with them.

 

They are meant to have highest hero kill count and ensure team victory provided they get to do their job. Accordingly, carries are primarily designed to have AA augmenting skills, ala Boros critical strike or Zera backstab, which is offset by either poor chasing/disable skills or to a lesser degree, farm ability, or also a low hp pool.

 

Here you have a hard carry, shadow, who arguably is the strongest team wiping carry, being able to engage multiple targets in his ulti. He has an aoe farming skill that scales with weapon damage, a initiation/slowing aoe disable spell, an innate inescapable chase ability, and an ultimate that renders him untargetable. In earlier versions, shadow was considered balanced due to early game vulnerability despite his late game dps potential, this is an inherent design with most AA carries.

 

The current metagame makes it such that he gets a decently sized hp pool early game due to cheap hp/agi items and abusable leech effects. The only true way to counter shadow is to complete deny any farm opportunity, I.e a strong push comp that leaves enemy team hiding in base after the first 20 minutes with no chance to jungle.

 

Then again, you have AA heroes who do more burst damage than most casters in early game which throws any semblance of balance out the window.

 

This is a great wording of what many people have been trying to voice.

 

Simply put, there is no glaring weakness to the majority of AA heroes.

 

Zera, Nova, Shadow, Boros, Darpa, the five most often seen/talked about.

 

Zera: Can flip players/creeps, deals good AA damage, has a leap, and can utterly shut down everyone in an AOE ulti to slaughter basically anyone he wants.

Nova: very fast, has cloak run, has lock down, deals high damage super fast

Shadow: AOE, invulnerable ulti, cant be escaped, vortex can be amazing for both offense and defense.

Boros: Spell immunity, Debuf immunity, can pull, aoe, brutal ultimate damage with invulnerability.

Darpa: Fast, leaps, good AA damage, silences, DoTs.

 

All of these characters are good at farming, can lane push well, easily dispatch heroes and can both chase you down and run from you if they are losing, no problems.

 

Lets compare that to some of the "scary" heroes of the non-agi/AA types

Tanks:

Balrog: good leech, can farm with aoe, has an offense leap, ulti stacks health.

Vorpral: reflects spells, deals pretty good damage, pulls, some aoe.

Tychus: heavy resist options, slow, aoe and healing

Drake: Aoe options, speed boosts, pull and an aoe boom that heals him.

 

Differences from the AA heroes?

Balrog: loses his health stacks if he dies once. Take quite some time to repair from a death. Debuff immunity is nice, but doesn't protect him from pyre. AOE is relatively weak and he has no escape mechanics. if he gets in over his head hes toast.

Vorp: better escape options than the other tanks, but is damage output is easily avoided. Dodge the cloud, javelins are wonky, and a decent enough escape option. Of all the Tanks, vorp is the most deadly with the most consistency IMO

Tychus: resist options are awesome, self healing is pretty good and the slow lets him catch you if you arent watching for it. Boomshot isn't too bad. Vulnerable, very vulnerable, early game since he has no real escape mechanics other than a brief slow (that takes time to cast) or his resist at level 6. With teh (needed!) nerfing of his healing, he can no longer escape a coordinated effort to drop him.

Drake: his most potent damage dealer also hurts him, leaving him very health dependent. If he gets good and fed, he can be scary, but he has few options to escape a bad situation.

 

Previously, these heroes were durable enough to survive dark times and keep on trucking, now they are not. AA heroes still have their sick damage and can escape from bad places, thus are now 100% superior to the very team dependant tanks (vorp possibly excluded)

 

How about casters?

Rory: Multi target stun, aoe DoTs, a protective tent and a positional death turret of death. Seems pretty good, but he is slow moving and fragile, meaning once the paralax generator hits the field, nullifying his stuns and dots, he's dead with no escape options and no ability to take more than a hit or two. Hs turret is also very positional and can often just be walked away from.

Cyprus: Cyprus might actually be op. He can escape from nearly anything, moves fast, blinks, has aoe, and his ulti is a hellish single target death punch. If you build to counter him, you will die to anything that isn't him. Very hard to deal with without a coordinated effort, so a definate pubstomper.

Raynor: Good at last shots, silncing, and keeping the fight moving, jimmy hs no escape options and dies handily if caught out of position.

unix: a great lane pusher capable of solid sustain and reasonbaly able to escape. Can be burst down handlily enough, and thanks to the tentacle bug, he is unable to utilize his greatest asset: stealth. Even without the bug, unix is very reliant on his ulimate doing the work against heroes, and with the plethora of stuns, silences, or escape options available his primary weapon is unrealiable these days.

 

In short, the heroes with a plethora of escape options are the ones that are the most deadly. Cyprus and possibly null take the cake for casters, vorp is one of the only tanks that can get teh hell out of dodge, but nearly ALL aa carries can run like hell and never think twice. Furthermore, these carries have no obvious weaknesses nor reliance on the team: they can tower-dive, caster hunt, gank, fight outnumbered, farm...all without any real fear of being broekn down for it. On the flip side, nearly all the other heroes need their teams and have obvious and abusable weaknesses.

 

I beleive the best and most viable solution would be to remove item based leech entirely (making leech heroes unique indeed!) and letting the leech talent be a very nice option. This would mean that the glass cannon aa carries would actually be glass, and that heroes such as tychus and egon and rory that can provide various degrees of healing become much more useful.

 

As it stands, an AA carry with a non-zero amount of leech has little or no need for team support in most situations.

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mmh i had the problem that i can´t target him in his ulti with elixier,andif my team tried to run out of the fog we (3 teammates and i died or so low hp that we got killed by his teammades.,so the big problem for me is his ulti,without his ulti it´s better to handle.

 

i don´t know but can it be that you get more exp and reach lvl 18 faster then you get money out of this for items,if i am lvl 18 and stay a lot of time in my lane with for example 3-3 stats´i only have the money for 3 expensive items and shadow do better with 3 items then other heroes? i played with jakk,first item Box,then Foe and chillin or execut... maybe i do wrong but i think i am no glasscanon with this 3.

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There are ways of countering aa heroes with items. There are very few ways without, and if the player playing the aa hero is quasi good (why is it when someone says, x aa hero is op, a some people think about the nabs and scrabs they've owned countless times, playing that hero? Like the people that used to say, "get smoke screen and bio ult is useless", did they not think that the bio would not get a scan and completely nullify it?) there are fewer still. Let's take shadow (a hero I have little trouble with, because almost all above-average players never use him, probably because no one wants to be compared to the nabs and scrabs that HAVE to play Shadow to get an ok kdr). You say, get Shrapnel Cloak. Let's play out the scenario. Shadow runs in, hits you once or twice, boom, you pop it and think you are safe. WRONG! He instantly uses vortex, a milisecond after you both come out, he is attacking you again like nothing happened. He easily kills you despite your 2600 mineral paperweight. Ok, perhaps E. Mantle? Ok, that plays out somewhat better. He is stunned long enough for you to have a chance to kill him with a burst. Do you? Of course not, because just by buying a single item that gives a lot of health (FoE, Organic, Galactic Defendor, or even the 1050 component of OC) he is probably able to survive, albeit with low hp. But as soon as that is done, blam, you are dead, and he is at full hp. A shadow can EASILY deal ~500 damage, while attacking multiple times per second. Just with leeching saber, and leech talent, he has over 20% leech, meaning that every attack, he gains more than 100 hp, which happens more than twice or maybe even thrice per second. Can you outdps that? Yes? Well, in that event you'll die because you don't have enough hp to tank his damage long enough. And a Shadow will have a lot MORE, both damage, leech, and mighty crits.

 

That said, it IS possible to beat shadow, you just need enough skill, and fedness from other sources to counter shadow. Ex below.

 

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ucrckn

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this replay shows me that teamplay is all, everyone in your team say in chat where he is and you had the strongest HP hero in game....so for rest of guys (98%in pubs) this is unrealistic.

 

the thing is if the enemy team has 2 heroes the same ,maybe 2 drakes or 2 jakks the other team can win it,but if the team has 2 shadows or two boros its impossible right? If they do well and don´t run into towers from start.....what says that?! they are to strong!..........and this game goes faster and faster from patch to patch,where is the balance then,they are weaker then other heroes so for me they have the role like assasines,but with the new items and tons of leech and crits they are killingmaschines and on top of that u have only seconds to target them,thats the problems.

 

I have no masterplan for it to change but so much topics about this heroes,well there is something wrong,so if u say aaaa its not importand and you want that the 2%felling good with this and the other 98%,flob :) them then its no wonder that other games have bigger communitys.

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why everyone say then in spanish where he is? or maybe i am wrong,i looked it 15 min,no time for 1 hour11,

 

and pls don´t missunderstand me,i am a 36 years old man and i don´t what to scream here this game is sh.it and unbalanced,i play this game 2 hours a day or maybe more(with my beer :)) and that when the game came out so my heart hangs on it a bit,sry for my bad english by the way, i hope u understand what i want to say here.

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It seems like the biggest problem with AA hero's is their farming ability. If you shut down the farm from AA heros, they are easy to deal with late game.

 

This is where leech creates the biggest problem. They have unlimited sustain with leech so they can jungle/creep endlessly from the time they are level 3-4. And with the high rate creep waves, even if you shut them down in lane, they can jungle or creep near their tower.

 

Spell leech was removed essentially due to leeching from creeps. Tone down physical leech from creeps and it will take much more skill to farm with AA heros and therefore play them effectively.

 

*Edit*

One last point. With the change to creep waves, caster heros are no longer as effective at farming. They are much more mana hungry than they ever were. I dont think this is a bad change, it just shifts the balance much more in the favor of AA heros early game.

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