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Increase SS CD to at least 30 seconds


akanna
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Hey so I did the math and even with the new 1.53 patch cerebro its still very easy to perma / near perma SS on boros

 

The cooldown on SS is currently 21

 

with the +12% CD talent and the +10% CD int pot this gives +22% CDR

 

this means that you get .22 seconds added CD for every second that passes, or each second counds as 1.22 seconds

 

so when boros SS's then crits

his CD is down to 11 seconds, and from there 11/1.22 = 9 seconds left on SS CD

 

so with just the starting talent and a pot he is at a 3 second gap between perma SS's

And with CD items he can easily bring that down to 1 or 2 if not perma

 

As is this is totally broken

 

To fix this increase boros SS CD to at least 30 (35 or 40 at most)

 

So lets explore numbers and find the right balance:

 

At 30 CD, you will get a 3 second gap again but this is a gap that would be very hard to overcome,

he can SS, then crit, to reduce CD to 20

20/1.22 = 16 seconds left,

SS runs out after 6 leaving 10 seconds on the clock

3 seconds later he can crit again to remove all remaining time, but theres no feasible way to perma

so the minimal gap would be set at a hard 3 seconds (not great but better)

 

At 40 he could SS then crit, leaving 30 seconds on the CD

30/1.22 = 24 seconds left

SS runs out after 6 seconds with 18 seconds still on the CD clock

after 3 more seconds he crits again, leaving 5 seconds left on CD

And thus you get an 8 second minimal gap between SS's (which would be much more balanced)

Even with MASS cooldown you cant get lower than around 4 or 5 seconds

 

As much as Id love an 8 second gap, we dont want the CD raised so high that you have to use cerebro or you cant play well with him, so a balance is needed and 40 is probably too much (thats why 30 is ideal, a 3 second gap may not seem like much but its far better than 1 or 2)

 

Adding +9 seconds really wont screw over much of normal boros play

but it does make it so you don't have perma/near perma SS cereboros running around pissing everyone off

(at bare minimum you'd have a 3 second window to react which is enough time to stun etc him and keep him from critting again, buying you more time between SS's)

 

Thoughts?

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As I've said many times, the problem with boros is his spell inmunity during the SS, so the cooldown is just a minor detail.

 

But being able to keep it up permenatly is not a minor detail at all, and is a real problem atm

The CD is too low

 

I agree that if he was say +75% resist, it wouldn't seem as bad, but even then the CD would still need an increase so he couldn't perma spam it

The real prob is that its not just a spell shield, hes also perma debuff immune (slows, stuns etc) making it very hard to escape him, or pin him down

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You're a little off; it's 3s between with Cerebro, CDR talent, and Int pot.

 

21s base. Crit cuts off 10s. CDR adds linearly so 10% + 12% is 22% CDR. This means that every second of game time takes off 1.22s of cooldown time. 11s remaining CD time goes by in just a smidgen over 9s of game time. So the whole 21s will clear in 9s of universal game time so long as a crit occurs somewhere in that 9 seconds. 6s duration means there's 3s afterwards before SS comes back up for use.

 

If the CD went to 30s:

20s after Cerebro, 11 more go by in 9s of game time leaving 9s remaining. By this time, Cerebro can proc again at any point and wipe out the remainder of the CD. So boosting the CD to 30s really won't do anything; it'll still leave about 3s between SS ending and it coming back available for use. You can't really make any kind of "set benchmark" for how long of a gap between SS uses there will be because how much CDR a person has is going to be variable throughout the match and if you make the CD too long, it railroads the player into stacking CDR just for normal use. Maybe a slight mechanic change is in order; say drop spell resist from 100% to 80% and debuff wipe from 10 times per second to once every 2s or so.

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You're a little off; it's 3s between with Cerebro, CDR talent, and Int pot.

 

21s base. Crit cuts off 10s. CDR adds linearly so 10% + 12% is 22% CDR. This means that every second of game time takes off 1.22s of cooldown time. 11s remaining CD time goes by in just a smidgen over 9s of game time. So the whole 21s will clear in 9s of universal game time so long as a crit occurs somewhere in that 9 seconds. 6s duration means there's 3s afterwards before SS comes back up for use.

 

If the CD went to 30s:

20s after Cerebro, 11 more go by in 9s of game time leaving 9s remaining. By this time, Cerebro can proc again at any point and wipe out the remainder of the CD. So boosting the CD to 30s really won't do anything; it'll still leave about 3s between SS ending and it coming back available for use. You can't really make any kind of "set benchmark" for how long of a gap between SS uses there will be because how much CDR a person has is going to be variable throughout the match and if you make the CD too long, it railroads the player into stacking CDR just for normal use. Maybe a slight mechanic change is in order; say drop spell resist from 100% to 80% and debuff wipe from 10 times per second to once every 2s or so.

 

I caught that and edited it before you posted,

the change to 30 would make a difference though, because it would make it a hard gap of 3 seconds minimum

at 21 you can easily get it down to 1 or 2 with a CD item or 2 on top of the talent and pot

3 seconds buys you a little time to react with stuns etc to stall him from critting again

 

I like your suggested changes though, reducing the shield to 80% and debuff removal every 2 seconds would be an amazing change

The problem at hand is how strong SS is when cast perma / near perma

so nerfing it may be better than trying to just fix the gap

 

Even nerfed I still think 30 CD may be in order, perma spamming it is kinda IMBA regardless of nerfs ;)

however if the nerf is balanced enough it may not be an issue

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so... are u saying boros is op?

 

I think he's just saying that being immune to spell damage ~85% of the time is a little anti-fun to play against.

 

But Midknight is correct, raising it won't make too much of a difference because cerebro can proc 3 seconds after it ends, so unless you make it an ult, you'll just overnerf boros and make him about as useful as the old Balrog.

Be happy that you now at least have 3 seconds to slow, silence, stun, and nuke him into oblivion.

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I think he's just saying that being immune to spell damage ~85% of the time is a little anti-fun to play against.

 

But Midknight is correct, raising it won't make too much of a difference because cerebro can proc 3 seconds after it ends, so unless you make it an ult, you'll just overnerf boros and make him about as useful as the old Balrog.

Be happy that you now at least have 3 seconds to slow, silence, stun, and nuke him into oblivion.

 

antifun is a valid argument, but u hafta understand, especially given the pressure some forum users are putting forth about how all heroes are the same or the game lacks variety, etc, that removing a unique skill from a well established hero is not going to be well recieved

 

balanced or not is the more primary concern

 

besides, i don't agree that its not fun. its hilarious to aa/kite a boros in spellstorm and watch as he doesn't know whether he should charge u or retreat, and its even funnier once u have gravity edge to kill him with a spell while he is spell storming. beyond that, knowing when he has his spellstorm on/off cooldown during laning phase is pretty key strategy vs boros. finally, by the time he gets cerebro, i assume he also has atleast 1 other item (or hes retarded), at which point any caster should have an argus and gravity edge.

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antifun is a valid argument, but u hafta understand, especially given the pressure some forum users are putting forth about how all heroes are the same or the game lacks variety, etc, that removing a unique skill from a well established hero is not going to be well recieved

 

balanced or not is the more primary concern

 

besides, i don't agree that its not fun. its hilarious to aa/kite a boros in spellstorm and watch as he doesn't know whether he should charge u or retreat, and its even funnier once u have gravity edge to kill him with a spell while he is spell storming. beyond that, knowing when he has his spellstorm on/off cooldown during laning phase is pretty key strategy vs boros. finally, by the time he gets cerebro, i assume he also has atleast 1 other item (or hes retarded), at which point any caster should have an argus and gravity edge.

 

I actually don't have a problem with spellstorm either now that Omni is fine. I find it fun to encounter the occasional mid lane boros (he's one of the worst mid heroes in the game...), since I often take casters mid. He sees I am Dustin and walks into the middle of the river, SS on, so I just take half his health away with autoattacks and Plasma Beam.

 

Since Spell Immunity is counterable with Gravity's Edge (which is a pretty cheap and cost-effective item, too), I think it's in a good spot right now.

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I don't have a problem with Spell Storm dealing good AoE damage or it giving Boros Spell Immunity, but does it really have to give him Debuff Immunity TOO? =| It just does too much.

[@Whale]

And besides, it used to not give Debuff Immunity anyway, so that doesn't really change the core of the skill.

 

I miss being able to apply Spell Storm to allies =[

 

 

@FruitNinja:

Same here except Grunty instead of casters ;D

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EterNity this is WITH the 1.53 Cerebro

P=

 

@Whale: So? Just because he's a copied hero doesn't mean that he needs to be imbalanced.

And if an ability does too much it can't be underpowered; can it? =|

Also, I said "good damage", and "but does it really" which implies that I feel that it is too good of a skill to be his normal skill.

I swear if Boros was remade and his Q became a sucky version of Omnislash [2/3/4/5 slashes that deal 40 Spell Damage + 100% Weapon Damage; 28 second CD] and his R became a more epic version of Spell Storm [Deals 40/70/100 [+40% INT] DPS for 6 seconds during which Boros has Spell Immunity and Debuff Immunity, removes all debuffs from nearby allies, grants a halved version [20/35/50 +20% INT DPS with 50% Spell Resistance] to up to 2/3/4 nearby allies, 100/85/70 second cooldown] would make him a much cooler hero.

Also who DOESN'T want to see more Omnislash? I mean, Omnislash is a COOL ability in looks, right? =S

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so... are u saying boros is op?

 

I am not saying that boros is OP, but perma / near perma SS def is

 

I highly doubt the skill was designed with the idea that it would be perma spanned every 1-3 seconds....

It was originally intended to have a 21 second cooldown (IE a 10-15 ish second gap between SS's)

 

Given that this is no longer the case I think its time to revisit SS, and make some improvements to it

I agree that changing the CD to 30 as I suggested may not be enough (although it would make it impossible to perma spam)

 

I def like Midknights idea of changing it to 80% spell resist, with every 2 second debuff removal

 

I also could get behind simply removing the debuff immunity

 

perma SS is unfun, and kind of OP and IMBA

 

Yes there are ways to damage him while he has it up, but its still extremely strong

And it prevents you from slowing/stunning or otherwise doing anything else to him that might keep you alive or help you catch him

This does hurt many heros (not every hero is well suited to picking him off with ranged AA while he has SS up after all)

Especially casters, tanks, and other melee chars who really cant do much to touch him with it up all the time

(melee chars and tanks cant get close bc of the SS damage, casters cant do shap without gravity edge, and even then the damage is significantly lowered)

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so if boros isn't op, but you think one of his abilities is, then what do u propose we buff to make up for nerfing his ss?

 

Nothing, Its broken, you fix it, no need for anything else

 

I have no problems with SS when its cast as intended (10-15 second delays in between)

but since its castable every 1-3 seconds something has to be done to rebalance the scales

 

He will still have his ult so no real need for a buff (its more than strong enough to take up any slack SS nerf generates)

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that would significantly weaken boros

 

 

you do know that boros can't really do much after omni in a team fight. he can't chase anyone like shadow, leo, or crackling, or even zera (the other melee agi carries)

 

basically if u get more then 8 autoattacks off with any other melee carry, your doing more damage then boros

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that would significantly weaken boros

 

 

you do know that boros can't really do much after omni in a team fight. he can't chase anyone like shadow, leo, or crackling, or even zera (the other melee agi carries)

 

basically if u get more then 8 autoattacks off with any other melee carry, your doing more damage then boros

 

I have played boros many times, I am well aware of his strengths and weaknesses

 

Thats the exact reason most boros players get cerebro in the first place (SS and ULT more often)

And why perma SS comes up so much

 

So let me flip the question

 

How would you address the problem of a nearly perma cast 100% spell resist and debuff immunity spell that also does damage in an area around him to any heros that get close?

Or do you think its balanced for a hero to have these benefits for all but a few seconds of the match?

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if he is rushing cerebro, he will do no damage

 

if he isn't rushign cerebro, he won't have it until ~25 minute mark, at the earliest

 

and anyways, late game spell storm barely does any damage at all. i think his damage output is far inferior to any other aa carry in a sustained team fight. he excells at picking one person out, or omni-ing, and then walking out with ss to go get his omni back off cooldown. thats about all he can do late game.

 

does that mean i think cerebro, as an item, is working as a good item should be? definitely not before the internal cooldown. probably not when it was 1 second internal cooldown with 4 second reduction//2 second internal cooldown with 5 second reduction. Now? with 9 second internal and 10 second reduction? remains to be tested really.

 

do i think boros needs spell/debuff immunity to be usefull? absolutely

 

 

i've suggested multiple different effects for cerebro since it was implemented into the game:

-make your crits deal bonus spell damage = to % of int

-makes your crits cause ur next spell to deal bonus spell damage

-makes your crits amp spell damage on target

-etc

 

all with the intention to make cerebro a unique and diverse item to have

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It would be nice if Boros could take AoE damage during his final. I find that a boros may SS me, making a 6 second immunity, and right as it ends, as i live, he just finals, making massive damage almost certain death, and also again, immunity. No hero has an ability that grants 100% resistance to something (Except Vergil and its only 2.2 secs with evasion). Not only that, but he has TWO abilities that grant him basicly invulnerability with an except to very few things.

My suggestion to Cerebro shud grant +60% CDR during a crit strike, for 1 second, making the unit HAVE to be attacking to gain the CDR and since AA heros can shred threw creeps threw seconds, it won't last extremely long.

Yamato reactor (use to be hyperion) was the ideal way to lower a cooldown but since cerebro came in, Cerebro has proven to be way more effective, as long as you have crits.

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I think boros is in a decent enough spot right now, actually. Which is amusing considering how much time I spent trying to get him put in check, which I feel 1.47 did failry well. The new items and genral balance tweaking made boros counterable...now, he is once again uncounterable if he gets his full item set running. This means the solution is to keep him beaten down and not let him feed.

 

therin lies the problem.

 

With the current situation involving crits, the overall damage to health ratios, and the fact taht starting at level 6 boros can insta-gib whoever he is laning against...oh and the fact that spell storm deals AOE allowing him to farm or jungle super effectively too...you can't stop boros from getting his items up.

 

Fixing the crit situation and.or the damage/health ratios could well put boros back where he needs to be.

 

Alternatively, you could reduce boros's farming capacity by making SS not deal damage (since its insignifacnt against later game heroes anyway, right?) and buffing his ultimate to compensate. Perhaps reduce the over all damage of omni, but make it only hit heroes, so there are no more wasted shotds due to creeps in the area? Less damage, but more efficient damage, is a buf no?

 

I am not sure the actual best corse of action right now, but I am certain that the game state is not where it should be. The game is FAR less fun, more frustrating and seems too dependant on the results of the first couple deaths. I have mentioned elsewhere that I do enjoy the new creep mechanic, though if it were slowed down to 45 seconds I wouldnt complain at all, and I find the over all feel of the game still exciting.

 

However, the seemingly mindless clusterflob that the game falls apart into due to the damage-health ratios, uber fast creep waves, untouchable AA carries and a crit system that allows them to murder you mindlessly...

 

Yeah. Things don't feel like they should.

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