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[1.48] AA vs Casters


FruitNinja
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So right now I did a quick test: A nova, with Lethal Barb, a Ravager, Khali Blade, Shadowmourne, Stun Baton, and Masamune killed an obelisk (10000 hp, no resistances) in less than two seconds. Meanwhile, a Queen with five Argus Crystals, and a Gravity Edge did around 4000 damage with a baneling bust. At first glance, it would appear that Nova is grossly overpowered here due to the fact that she has only two weapon damage items, But when you take into account that the 10000 damage is all physical and that the baneling bust plus the ultralisk's stun would have just instakilled nova anyway, I'm not sure if this really is as OP as people make it out to be. You have to invest a lot into a crit build, but crits are fixed now and only add physical damage, right?

 

I'm not sure where I stand on this issue but it seems that AA heroes aren't really too overpowered (I think 10000 physical damage is still a lot for less than 2 seconds of shooting, since the whole point of AA carries is to deal sustained damage... but the fire rate cap should have never been raised in the first place), given their counters and the fact that casters can effectively compete, being able to put out similar amounts of actual damage. I'm also not sure if Queen is really the burstiest caster out there, but a single baneling strike will deal more damage than most heroes can take, which is why I chose her for the comparison.

 

Of course, this is if Crits deal Physical damage again. If they deal True damage then this really is absurd. ~5000 True damage in 2 seconds? That's absurd!

 

EDIT: Apparently, crits still deal True damage. Nova with 100% crit chance and 400 weapon damage killed a tassadar clone (6700hp, 55 armor) in two crits (600 each).

 

0.97^55 = 0.187, so that's about 83% physical resist. 1200 total physical damage times that would equal 240 damage, but Tass' clone takes at least 250 damage at level 0...

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Yes, see the edit. I tested it with a tassadar clone (switching heroes does not remove the clone).

 

In this case, I believe 5000+ true damage in 2 seconds is a lot... so now I agree with the recent outcry about AA heroes being overpowered. It makes tosh pale in comparison, since he is short-ranged unlike nova...

 

I really don't see a point in having casters even exist late-game if AA heroes can burst more than them. They shouldn't scale better either, because that makes the game into a quick-draw contest, imo.

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The only caster who can be better dps than nova now is jakk with stun baton, pyre, masamune, foe, phantom menace, yamato haste talent and the bug of weapons active, lol, you reach as cap with haste, then you active yamato and the time scale form yamato+masamune is lol, that with the x2 weapons (x2 stun baton and x2 pyre effect) is terribly funny, you also get like 8 move speed with all this shap active.

 

Its just an stupid troll build to say that a standart AA build can just do all in a game, I know that items like sharpnel cloak or executioners axe exist but imo this game is becoming more mad in late game each patch, where the hero who 2 shot the enemy first win the game, seriously, you dont need any kind of strategy, just select your victim and exterminate it xD

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Yes, see the edit. I tested it with a tassadar clone (switching heroes does not remove the clone).

 

In this case, I believe 5000+ true damage in 2 seconds is a lot... so now I agree with the recent outcry about AA heroes being overpowered. It makes tosh pale in comparison, since he is short-ranged unlike nova...

 

I really don't see a point in having casters even exist late-game if AA heroes can burst more than them. They shouldn't scale better either, because that makes the game into a quick-draw contest, imo.

 

Yah that is what has happened. It probably makes better sense to build casters with a crit build with lethal barbed now than to bother scaling the hero with intelligence.

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I blame crits for all the bad things

 

@Ironsights: Crit casters and crit tanks are indeed quite powerful, its not just an AA thing

Lethal Barbed + Shadowmourne is good on pretty much anyone

 

Crit is kind of that universal build for every hero (unless you are stacking INT)

 

It makes armor meaningless and allows for so many 1-4 second kills

 

 

And yet for some reason everyones caught up on the new attack speed buff instead of blaming crits which are in fact the only reason the buff is so strong

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casters are strong against dps.

but they need his distance.

when the dps gets on the caster - hes over.

get the caster in his distance to dps - hes over.

thats the strategy in game.

 

teamplay.

 

Try casting on nova outside of her attack range.

 

Let me know how that works out.

 

-------

 

As for crits against AA...maybe so, but that doesn't explain it all, at least not to me.

 

I feel like damage output compared to life totals for AA (maybe this is the part that is caused by crits?) is absurd.

In saying that, I start to see your point.

 

Either way, AA heroes, specifically agi heroes, do way, way too much damage way too fast.

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Quistmann, I agree.

 

the trouble is, with the new health to damage ratios, not even tanks can hold up long enough to do their job--especially against boros.

 

Tank innitiates, casters prep their combos, boros QR's ignoring all damage and bouncing from hero to hero. Tank is brutalized but alive, casters around the tank are dead, tank dies to AA.

 

I am firmly of the mindset that if the current life totals are going to remain, then weapon damage has to be scaled back at least slightly in order to keep things balanced. It is also possible that it is crit damage that is to blame, and if that is the case that is what needs fixed.

 

Whatever the actual culprit is, the damage out put to health ratio is too stacked in favor of damage.

 

This is a hero battle game, I want to feel like a bad ass wading through the tides of war, not like a marine ordered to charge a wall of banelings.

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The bottom line is NOVA with the amount of crit damage and the fact that she use a lethal barb is broken. To crit that much life off is stupid, I don't even know why there are resists in this game because everyone just builds crit items. Especially since they are so good and the best items in the game pretty much. Until crit is addressed team fights will consist of nova hiding in the bushes waiting for a team engagement and 1 person owning the whole team in about 5 seconds flat.

 

Not sure about you guys but I don't bother getting any resists pretty much anymore because all casters get grav edge as well so health is king pretty much.

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With crits being a huge problem because of something blizzard isn't willing/able to fix right now, why not remove crit and replace it with "Armor Penetration". This would do 2 things, it would remove the randomness of crits (not that crits are all that random because everyone stacks crit), and it would remove the current problem with crits. Make it similar to gravity edge with converting a percentage of your physical damage to true damage.

 

I know people will complain about leech not being effective stacking armor pen, but it would be a trade off and would likely require a bit of balancing.

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I used to use maar as a counter to all AA people because well 4 argus crystals 1 ihan and 1 stars fury owned them all. Think they can do damage fast? try a 1500 damage sap. Boros comes in and is like whats up, then i just use sap with grav edge and then stars fury basic attack, he still dies. But now this doesn't work too well anymore since he got nerfed kinda bad. How they shoulda fixed sap.

 

Damage 200% Int, gain 150+65% life of the damage.

 

Am i the only one who thought he was the best counter to AA chars?

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Apparently Crits are able to be changed to Physical Damage by some magick that Ekcolnovkol and RedHydra cobbled together.

Which is awesome, a significant nerf to Critical damage output and a buff to Critical Damage sustain.

And the Cerebro change inforces that a little [-10s off CDs on Crit but 9s CD]

- Critical Strikes now deal Physical Damage instead of True Damage.

 

 

Talents

- Youth now grants +230 Energy from 200.

- Vigor Health Regen increased to 2.3 from 2.

- Fitness now grants +180 Health from 160.

- Bloodthirst Lifesteal reduced to 9% from 12%.

 

 

Cerebro

- Your Critical Strikes reduce all of your cooldowns by 10 seconds. 9 second cooldown.

 

Executioner's Axe

- Bonus STR and AGI increased to 30 from 25.

 

Barbed Plating

- Fixed tooltip description on damage return values (50% instead of 30%).

 

Eye of Duran

- Duran's Eye now lasts for 120 seconds from 60 seconds.

 

 

Balrog.Brutalizer

- Bloodbath Damage increased to 300/600/900 Physical Damage (+150% INT) from 200/350/500 (+150% INT).

- Bloodbath Cooldown increased to 45 seconds from 25.

- Sonic Screech Cooldown increased to 18/16/14/12 from 12.

- Sonic Screech Debuff Immunity increased to 2/3/4/5 at all levels from 2/2.5/3/3.5.

 

EnTaro.Tassadar

- Reduced channel time on Aether Swap to 1 second from 1.3

- Astral Projection now cuts Tassadar's Weapon Damage by 30% from 35%.

- Projection now deals 70% Weapon Damage from 65%.

- Hyper Armor INT Scaling increased to 100% from 80.

 

Omega.Starscream

- Transform now reduces Weapon Damage by 40/30/20/10% from 65/50/35/20%.

 

Vorpal Valedict

- Dark Matter's Damage Reflection now deals Spell Damage instead of True Damage.

 

Tiberius.Rancor

- Deadly Eye Lockdown now deals 60/110/160/210 (+60% Weapon Damage) Spell Damage from 60/110/160/210 (+50% Weapon Damage).

- Under Dead Eye Cloak Field, Lockdown Bonus Damage reduced to (+130% INT) from (+150% INT) Spell Damage.

The spoiler text is just to make you believe me when I say the first part, and thus is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

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Apparently Crits are able to be changed to Physical Damage by some magick that Ekcolnovkol and RedHydra cobbled together.

Which is awesome, a significant nerf to Critical damage output and a buff to Critical Damage sustain.

And the Cerebro change inforces that a little [-10s off CDs on Crit but 9s CD]

 

The spoiler text is just to make you believe me when I say the first part, and thus is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

 

But, but the changelog says:

 

"- Critical Strikes now display the proper bonus damage amount."

 

Do crits actually do physical damage now, or did they just fix a tool tip??

 

Egads, I'm at work and can't find out...some one enlighten me, please!

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Seems like every post now has someone mentioning the attack speed cap. The reason it was raised, was to make more items actually usefull. Everyone knew before how to build a dps carry cause you had limited usefull items. Now they have a wider range, just like tanks and casters. Having a bunch of items in the game is useless if more than half are never used. People seem to underestimate certain items, like shrapnel, electric mantle, and executioners axe. DPS fall so fast to them in combination it is ridiculous. People just need to stop whining about it and learn to adapt to the changes and utilize the items available instead of going for the "omg i must kill this kid" build instead of "let's play smart."

 

Yes, nova is op...against people that don't utilize items to counter her. The point of the game is teamwork, even in pubs you can tell your teammates what to do and how to engage. Really, morale of this is that everyone whining about the changes need to actually step back and view the entire item list to build counters as they play instead of trying to play for themselves.

 

Just my 2 qq cents. I'm tired of people whining about the changes. Learn to adapt.

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Seems like every post now has someone mentioning the attack speed cap. The reason it was raised, was to make more items actually usefull. Everyone knew before how to build a dps carry cause you had limited usefull items. Now they have a wider range, just like tanks and casters. Having a bunch of items in the game is useless if more than half are never used. People seem to underestimate certain items, like shrapnel, electric mantle, and executioners axe. DPS fall so fast to them in combination it is ridiculous. People just need to stop whining about it and learn to adapt to the changes and utilize the items available instead of going for the "omg i must kill this kid" build instead of "let's play smart."

 

Yes, nova is op...against people that don't utilize items to counter her. The point of the game is teamwork, even in pubs you can tell your teammates what to do and how to engage. Really, morale of this is that everyone whining about the changes need to actually step back and view the entire item list to build counters as they play instead of trying to play for themselves.

 

Just my 2 qq cents. I'm tired of people whining about the changes. Learn to adapt.

 

I find it funny people talk about raising the attack speed cap to make certain items useful (such as the often cited arcbound ravager), however failing to realize lethal barbed and a full crit build makes all other attack speed items useless in comparison.

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But, but the changelog says:

 

"- Critical Strikes now display the proper bonus damage amount."

 

Do crits actually do physical damage now, or did they just fix a tool tip??

 

Egads, I'm at work and can't find out...some one enlighten me, please!

You know float combat text is gone, only crits are shown. But the value you saw is the complete Physical+Crit Damage before mitigation!

Now you should see only the amount of Crit=bonus damage. Don't know if before or after mitigation as its dealt in True Damage (counts next patch when crits should deal Physical again)...

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