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Armor, physical damage and criticals


Spooky
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I don't really like where this aspect of mechanics is gradually going to. Amount of armor heroes can reach is ridiculous. In beta especially where +14 armor talent get introduced. Once I easily reached over 60 armor with Tosh which is about 84% physical resistance. I don't know if there is a cap with it. It shouldn't be hard to reach even 70 armor (88% resistance). I think physical damage reduction is to high which makes some items like Contamination Shard pretty useless late game.

And there are also criticals which does true damage. Because of high armor values it is the only viable build for dps (not counting pyre). Moreover there is no counter to criticals. At some point of the game tanks are literally melted to heroes with high critical damage/chance. There is no other way to reduce its damage output than by reducing weapon speed or preventing from attacking. I think this is a part of current mechanics which is really broken. Moreover criticals are going to do additional 50% weapon damage instead 25%. I have no idea how tanks are suppose to tank at very late stages of the game. Raw HP isn't a solution because there is also Pyre. That mechanic is also making support heroes dying in 2-3 shots late game. I don't find it a good design when late game only specific type of heroes are viable at all.

 

Solution can be simple - make criticals do physical damage again. However there is still a problem with high values of armor which would make pyre superior to criticals. So armor formula can be changed little bit into 0.98^armor (20 armor - 33%, 40 armor - 56%, 60 armor - 70%). Current formula is 0.97^armor (20 armor - 46%, 40 armor - 71%, 60 armor - 84%). I see many advantages with this suggestion:

- Pure physical damage is viable again

- AGI heroes do more damage early-mid game - are more viable at this stage of the game

- AGI heroes doesn't dominate late game so hard

- Tanks can still tank late game as there is a counter to criticals - armor

- Armor itself become more significant factor and some items would be bough mainly for that attribute

- Contamination Shard would be great addition to critical builds

- LZ and Korhal physical resistance aura is viable again

- Kerrigan Bone Armor make a difference

- No possibility to 2-3 shot INT/support heroes

 

Potential side effects:

- Shadow can become too strong

- Physical leech would be much more viable

- Tychus can become almost impossible to kill if builded with Cerebro (infinite ulti), but it is more problem with Tychus than with mechanics

 

Other solution is to not change armor formula and make criticals do physical damage with some armor piercing, for example they can piercing 50% armor. Currently they literally piercing 100% armor which is broken IMO.

 

What do u think about this?

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wow, well, what about the possible bugs this could bring?? like with the 50% pierce damage from crits??, and why they removed true physical damage??

What kind of argument it is? U may say exactly the same about any other aspect of mechanics change, new items, new heroes, etc. And what is true physical damage?

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Team AoS has a lot to do with it - they decided to keep it this way and moreover they are about to buff criticals even more...

 

No...you dont understand. Ekco cant do anything about criticals being dealt as true damage. AFAIK, crit isnt being buffed per se, its just being fixed. It was always supposed to deal 50% additional damage. THat said, this may turn out to make certain heroes too strong again. We will see.

 

As for armor, everyone mostly agrees that the armor scaling with AGI is a bit high. This isnt a new issue. The 14 armor talent is easily the most powerful one for its tier, and i would be surprised if it doesnt get nerfed before the beta goes live.

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No...you dont understand. Ekco cant do anything about criticals being dealt as true damage. AFAIK, crit isnt being buffed per se, its just being fixed. It was always supposed to deal 50% additional damage.

But only fixing it without nerfing otherwise is nevertheless a stupid idea.

Crits are already the most powerful source of damage, buffing it makes most items useless!

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No...you dont understand. Ekco cant do anything about criticals being dealt as true damage. AFAIK, crit isnt being buffed per se, its just being fixed. It was always supposed to deal 50% additional damage. THat said, this may turn out to make certain heroes too strong again.

I may guess there is critical system built into editor which AoS simply use. But if developers was able to create items like BHM or Star's Fury they are able to create their own critical system as well and get control over it. And criticals not always suppose to do 50% additional damage, only since v6.0

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Due to how debuffs work, the 20% physical damage increase from Contamination Shard actually counteracts 40% of physical resist... So it is still extremely useful. If that info is correct from a previous thread about debuffs and etc

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Armor/ Agi stat needs big nerf. The fact that you can get high physical resist on Tosh means that (yes, armor talent helps) unless there were major changes to armor items, its just the rubbish that is agility armor scaling.

 

Tanks are supposed to tank spells, not physical. They perform their function well enough (while dealing damage that rivals most casters!!!!)

 

Nova and Boros are already incredibly strong in any setting, buffing them a little more won't really do much (maybe a ludicrous kill where there was a monster kill + assist, so no big deal)

 

The rest of the heroes are pretty ok as far as crit builds go. In any case it would be a buff to change crit to physical, mainly due to increased leech.

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Armor/ Agi stat needs big nerf. The fact that you can get high physical resist on Tosh means that (yes, armor talent helps) unless there were major changes to armor items, its just the rubbish that is agility armor scaling.

 

Tanks are supposed to tank spells, not physical. They perform their function well enough (while dealing damage that rivals most casters!!!!)

 

Nova and Boros are already incredibly strong in any setting, buffing them a little more won't really do much (maybe a ludicrous kill where there was a monster kill + assist, so no big deal)

 

The rest of the heroes are pretty ok as far as crit builds go. In any case it would be a buff to change crit to physical, mainly due to increased leech.

 

I'm sorry doom u must not know what a tank is. a tank is someone who soaks up all the damage not just spell damage, so that ur dps can get in and kill. example LZ passive and E, physical resist, use to be resist to all. vorpal W use to be resist to physical and spell damage and reflect a % of both. kerri bone armor again physical resist. so to make it clear tanks are made to tank all damage but not that true damage is there like its said above, tanks can not tank vs crit builds. and yes in a way it is ekco's fault that we still have crits dealing true damage. like said above it can be reworked to do something else. still call it crit but make it proc like BHM. that made alot of sence. instead of on ability its % chance on hit. someone will mention they wanna go away from % chances yet keep crit % chance so it works.

 

its not just nova and boros that are op with the crits, yes boros with his crit build and Q+R is op, barb doesnt work to counter and even with 5k hp and 45 armor he still one shots a tank. but grunty with crit is very strong, if jackons does his ulti to get whole team stacked he can run in and shot gun them all. his Q can crit yes. balrog crits from his Q R and his passive. ive dont a build in a game where my AA and passive when full hp crit for 600 each and my R crit for 1800. LZ crit build with cerebro. u can pera ring someone, be pera immune to debuffs and ur R well its nasty lets just say.

 

yes if crits were physical they would leech more but atleast then u can have the chance to counter them, axe, armor, barb(currently useless)

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Uhh possibly. For movement and weapon speed, a debuff of 35% counteracts a bonus of 70%. this may work differently for damage. And whether or not C Shard amplifies damage done or reduces risistances, despite what it says.

Who told u that? Its just a simple math. If u multiply sth by x (<1) then what y (>1) u need to overcome it? It simple y=1/x. So for 35% debuff u multiply current value by 0.65. Then u need to multiply it by 1/0.65=1.54 to overcome this. So to counter 35% debuff u need 54% buff. To counter 50% debuff u need 100% buff. To counter 60 armor (84%) u need 525% damage amplification... In the same way it works for movement and weapon speed.

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i must admit spooky is right. i played beta a few days before, and i started (!) with 20 armor on rory. that is 46% resistance, and that is a huge amount. On the other hand, i still don't understand why pyre remains as cheap as it is, although it becomes more and more one of the best items for any dps hero.

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Who told u that? Its just a simple math. If u multiply sth by x (<1) then what y (>1) u need to overcome it? It simple y=1/x. So for 35% debuff u multiply current value by 0.65. Then u need to multiply it by 1/0.65=1.54 to overcome this. So to counter 35% debuff u need 54% buff. To counter 50% debuff u need 100% buff. To counter 60 armor (84%) u need 525% damage amplification... In the same way it works for movement and weapon speed.

It's simple math? Then you fail simple math. And it is pretty simple; though...

 

A -50% M.Spd counters a +100% M.Spd due to the fact that everything is multiplicative.

3 * 2 * 0.5.

Or 3 * [1 + 1] * [1 - 0.5] to be more accurate.

Same applies to Attack Speed and Armor and stuff. Though I do wonder if Contamination Shard applies before or after resistances; it doesn't matter because everything is multiplicative.

X * [1 + 0.2] * [1 - 0.97 ^ Armor] * [1 - 0.15] = Physical Damage taken assuming you have no items or ability effects that give +% Physical Resistance.

 

Edit: For a -35% M.Spd you need:

X * 0.65 * Y = 1

0.65Y = 1/X

X = 1 / 0.65Y

X = 1.53846Y

 

I am stupid because I misread the post, please disregard me being an idiot and being condescending on somebody when I make failures as I am only human... =S

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I'm sorry doom u must not know what a tank is. a tank is someone who soaks up all the damage not just spell damage, so that ur dps can get in and kill. example LZ passive and E, physical resist, use to be resist to all. vorpal W use to be resist to physical and spell damage and reflect a % of both. kerri bone armor again physical resist. so to make it clear tanks are made to tank all damage but not that true damage is there like its said above, tanks can not tank vs crit builds. and yes in a way it is ekco's fault that we still have crits dealing true damage. like said above it can be reworked to do something else. still call it crit but make it proc like BHM. that made alot of sence. instead of on ability its % chance on hit. someone will mention they wanna go away from % chances yet keep crit % chance so it works.

 

its not just nova and boros that are op with the crits, yes boros with his crit build and Q+R is op, barb doesnt work to counter and even with 5k hp and 45 armor he still one shots a tank. but grunty with crit is very strong, if jackons does his ulti to get whole team stacked he can run in and shot gun them all. his Q can crit yes. balrog crits from his Q R and his passive. ive dont a build in a game where my AA and passive when full hp crit for 600 each and my R crit for 1800. LZ crit build with cerebro. u can pera ring someone, be pera immune to debuffs and ur R well its nasty lets just say.

 

yes if crits were physical they would leech more but atleast then u can have the chance to counter them, axe, armor, barb(currently useless)

 

 

I know perfectly well what a tank is. And according to magic DotA-style game rock-paper-scissors formula, tanks should be owned by DPS, while owning spellcastors. You might say that agi owns everything, and you'd be right. However, it owns tanks a micro-second slower than everything else, while in certain situations any spellcaster can kill the most powerful agi carries. Crits are op, yes, but the hardest carries in the game right now are Tank-carries, such as you well pointed out, Kerri, LZ, Tychus, Cain, so on. It takes a really long time to make a crit build worth it, thus they are almost never seen in pubs on any hero other than Boros or Nova. Inhouses are perhaps a different matter, but that's no longer an area of expertise or concern for me.

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The inherent problem with the janken hero system is that there are, essentially, only 3 real heroes and a lot of in-between slag on a triangle. I prefer to view it as more of a circle or maybe even a sphere. Each hero should have some method of dealing with any other type of hero and choosing the right move and right tactics for the situation is the matter of skill. Hero dynamics should be as fluid as possible, otherwise we're stuck with the same old game of DotA.

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There are many topics about 500% weapon speed cap now how it makes game broken late game. However I don't think so it is the 'core' of problems with AoS balance late game. I still think the main problem is with criticals doing true damage. They get 'fixed' recently to deal even more damage, and higher weapon speed cap make critical build with Lethal Barb the only viable build for AA carries. If there is set of items which is superior over any other build to fulfill specific role it automatically should be labeled as imbalanced and broken. Moreover, as I said before, there is no way to counter criticals. Tanks become useless very late game. They were useless in pre-patch and now they become useless even faster. So its not broken only because of being superior but also because of mechanics itself. It has to be addressed as fast as possible and criticals should be physical damage again. If blizzard has changed some function please use another one which works as it supposed to or create your own.

 

The same problem is with leech which going through physical resistance. Heroes leeching from weapon damage itself instead damage dealt. Leech is already very strong, especially when new talent system got released. At least there is counter to it - Executioner Axe, but physical resistance also should be a counter.

 

Game never be balanced if criticals and leech mechanics not get changed.

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There are many topics about 500% weapon speed cap now how it makes game broken late game. However I don't think so it is the 'core' of problems with AoS balance late game. I still think the main problem is with criticals doing true damage. They get 'fixed' recently to deal even more damage, and higher weapon speed cap make critical build with Lethal Barb the only viable build for AA carries. If there is set of items which is superior over any other build to fulfill specific role it automatically should be labeled as imbalanced and broken. Moreover, as I said before, there is no way to counter criticals. Tanks become useless very late game. They were useless in pre-patch and now they become useless even faster. So its not broken only because of being superior but also because of mechanics itself. It has to be addressed as fast as possible and criticals should be physical damage again. If blizzard has changed some function please use another one which works as it supposed to or create your own.

 

The same problem is with leech which going through physical resistance. Heroes leeching from weapon damage itself instead damage dealt. Leech is already very strong, especially when new talent system got released. At least there is counter to it - Executioner Axe, but physical resistance also should be a counter.

 

Game never be balanced if criticals and leech mechanics not get changed.

 

RNG cant make crits not true dmg :( something blizzard did. though i do think that making crits go back down to 125% but leaving Khali blade at +50% would help but not make crit usless

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