Itsthatguy Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 In my opinion, shadowmourne just DESTROYS grunty. You may ask why? Because of his passive. Shadowmourne only reduces the weapon damage of a unit. Thus Spell damage from pyre and true damage from passives will not be lowered. 200 Weapon damage is nothing on a shadowmourne because it turns into 100 damage (armor makes it around 40) so its not very useful. Vs Grunty, (most gruntys get pryre) it will deal around 40 (from weapons) 177 additional TRUE damage (from passive) and 5% his max hp (around an additional 100 - 150 damage). I faced a grunty when i had shadowmourne on a Clone as tassy before and i hit him once, (I did about 80 damage). The shadow acually killed him dealing 350 damage per hit (he had max attack speed) Taking around 1800 damage... It would be nice if shadowmourne had reduced damage by 50% on ALL damage, not just weapons. I mean the item literally destroys grunty since one hit will make him take around 2000 damage late game from his shadow... [Especially since the shadow spawns ON the target thus the full force of the passive is on grunty]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
residente Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 In the beta shadowmourne deal 30% damage, but it still proc items at full dmg, anyway shadowmourne now cost 4950 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itsthatguy Posted October 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Either way, it still massively counters grunty 3X more than any other AA hero. (Do critical strikes on shadows do 50% [if khali 100%] of the 30% weapons?) if so then a 400 damage boros with 100% crit chance (with khali) will deal only 120 True damage on critical damage, (Less damage than pyre or gruntys passive). Doesn't make the item counterable towards the heros qualified as "OP" towards the public [Maybe ppl think Boros (I actually agree to this), Nova, Zeratul (I agree to a degree), Shadow.] It is quite more ineffective towards Crit Chance builds than STR DPS since they usually get Pyre and a Force of Entropy (which will literally screw them if a shadow of them come up of that). Also does shadowmourne work on Clones? I remember it did before but after i use shadowmourne for a bit, it stops procing on the clones throughout from tassy and Bandit Artifice. Then I couldnt get it to proc on the clones at all. (unless it was a fix that was supose to happen.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescossey Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 I don't believe the clone can crit, i was playing cain crit build, no attack speed items except for lethal barb proc. and the clone that was attacking me didnt do shap for damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itsthatguy Posted October 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 I don't believe the clone can crit, i was playing cain crit build, no attack speed items except for lethal barb proc. and the clone that was attacking me didnt do shap for damage. Then the item will no longer counter AA Critical damage users, It will counter more toward STR units who rely on Unique Items like Pyre, Force of Entropy, Executioner axe, and others. ): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firnefex Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 But does nothing against Biotron, who is already OP! Don't know anything about the nerf coming for him though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banzaiguy Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Grunty's passive only deals full damage if you're at point blank range. Since it's highly unlikely that you'd be sitting there stationary attacking a stationary enemy while your shadow attacks you at point blank range, your normally end up at a range where you'd only take halfish damage from that passive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysi Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Have they changed the lasting shadow after your enemy has died Or the after death bug that is killing people and causing stupid draws? Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliwan Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 I seriously want to see Shadowmourne changed such that the Shadow deals 50% damage INCLUDING damage from items. Just reducing the Physical Damage to 30% isn't enough; especially since the Shadow copies Heroic Passives... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysi Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 I seriously want to see Shadowmourne changed such that the Shadow deals 50% damage INCLUDING damage from items. Just reducing the Physical Damage to 30% isn't enough; especially since the Shadow copies Heroic Passives... I dislike the entire idea of it procuring item affects. Discourages players from getting items like FoE, Stun Baton, etc because a player can buy one single item and return all of your item procures, where then they could focus the rest of their build to Tanky items and outlast you, especially if they are a Str hero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rem Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Ditto, if it didnt proc items/heroic passives i really wouldnt care if it did 100% weapon dmg..... ok thats a lie but itd be more balanced at 100% than proccing items.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itsthatguy Posted October 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Grunty's passive only deals full damage if you're at point blank range. Since it's highly unlikely that you'd be sitting there stationary attacking a stationary enemy while your shadow attacks you at point blank range, your normally end up at a range where you'd only take halfish damage from that passive. Most AA heros require to be stationary to attack, then it discourages grunty to attack the enemy. And running has its limits where u will still take about 2 hits which is still a lot of damage (Remember max attack speed on grunty is around 1 shot per 0.57 seconds on Fast (not normal). In this situation it makes engaging then escaping nearly impossible, and trying to face an enemy with shadowmourne causes major issues. I've had mutiple situations where enemy grunties were just owning me, but once i got a shadowmourne, i would basicly slaughter the grunty since your shadow will pulverise you. If im grunty, id rather the enemy just have 5 High DPS items then just 1 Shadowmourne and hp items just the fact I'm taking more damage from the shadow than the actual enemy. Overall, My point is that it isn't successfully countering the AA heros qualified as Op Pubstompers, it actually helps them more in most cases (helping with crit atk, and screwing Heros that rely on Uniques on items). Jaysi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iatebambi Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 In my honest opinion Shadowmourne should not proc item passives and heroic passives at all. And if that can't be changed for some reason, then just remove the item :| That's just what I would do. Jaysi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spooky Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Reducing weapon damage and increasing it cost wont balance that item. Whole community pointing out that broken part of this item is in fact that it proc items and heroic effects of target. Jaysi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apocalyptic Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Whole community pointing out that broken part of this item is in fact that it proc items and heroic effects of target. Thats the whole point of the item. If its not balanced then tweak it till it is, don't remove the whole point of the item. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironsights Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Thats the whole point of the item. If its not balanced then tweak it till it is, don't remove the whole point of the item. I disagree. I think the whole point of the item is to punish huge DPS AA Glass cannons by making them eat their own medicine. The most efficient way to keep the item doing that while not making it also slaughter pretty much all non casters and even a few of them is to make the shadow deal FULL (including items) weapon damage while not allowing it to proc effects such as Pyres 5% total life or stn batons stun. The item should make you hurt for trying to hurt me, not allow me to laugh at being out numbered 3 to 1 buy just swapping targets and summon slaughter bots that cant be killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strike Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 I disagree. I think the whole point of the item is to punish huge DPS AA Glass cannons by making them eat their own medicine. The most efficient way to keep the item doing that while not making it also slaughter pretty much all non casters and even a few of them is to make the shadow deal FULL (including items) weapon damage while not allowing it to proc effects such as Pyres 5% total life or stn batons stun. The item should make you hurt for trying to hurt me, not allow me to laugh at being out numbered 3 to 1 buy just swapping targets and summon slaughter bots that cant be killed. I think the whole point of that punish item is called barbed plating circa early 1.x AoS. Strike and Madvillain 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironsights Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 true, but with the heavy nerfs to barbed, something else is needed. That something is shadowmourne. Barbed is also easily negated by leech (or vice versa) whereas shadowmourne can help reduce the usefulness of leech immensely. Different tools for similar jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysi Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Would like to see Shrapnel Cloak disable shadows attack as well. I'm assuming it doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironsights Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Would like to see Shrapnel Cloak disable shadows attack as well. I'm assuming it doesn't. I would be ok with that if only shrapnel cloak did it, but if the clone could be shut down by all area stuns, it woudl become useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itsthatguy Posted October 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 true, but with the heavy nerfs to barbed, something else is needed. That something is shadowmourne. Barbed is also easily negated by leech (or vice versa) whereas shadowmourne can help reduce the usefulness of leech immensely. Different tools for similar jobs. Thats why there is an item called Executioner Axe. Usually AA heros have high armor so weapon damage in going to be Very Very low. The only true benefit i see from shadowmourne is the proc an item effect which most Non-glass cannons have. Nova and boros and others still 2 - 3 hit kill me (with like 2500 HP on me?), yet my shadow does about 60 damage only to them since they don't have items that Proc Uniques that makes shadowmourne so effective... It seems like its effective vs countering enemies with mutiple Uniques like Executioner Axe, Force of Entropy, Pyre (Definately the most), Stun baton, and a few others. Shadowmourne in my opinion doesn't counter AA anymore, it counters Unique items that have an effect on an enemy, thus reverting the effect back to you, including a passive, which is strongest vs Grunty. (Shadowmourne is 4x more effective vs grunty than any other enemy). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iatebambi Posted October 21, 2012 Report Share Posted October 21, 2012 @ItsThatGuy That is why it should be changed like Ironsights said. Change it to deal 100% WD yet not proc item effects. As it is, it is dealing next to no physical damage to AGI DPS carries because of the naturally high armour from AGI. So the item is actually countering alot of non dps heroes alot better than the dps heroes it was designed to counter. Ironsights 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironsights Posted October 21, 2012 Report Share Posted October 21, 2012 Thats why there is an item called Executioner Axe. Usually AA heros have high armor so weapon damage in going to be Very Very low. The only true benefit i see from shadowmourne is the proc an item effect which most Non-glass cannons have. Nova and boros and others still 2 - 3 hit kill me (with like 2500 HP on me?), yet my shadow does about 60 damage only to them since they don't have items that Proc Uniques that makes shadowmourne so effective... It seems like its effective vs countering enemies with mutiple Uniques like Executioner Axe, Force of Entropy, Pyre (Definately the most), Stun baton, and a few others. Shadowmourne in my opinion doesn't counter AA anymore, it counters Unique items that have an effect on an enemy, thus reverting the effect back to you, including a passive, which is strongest vs Grunty. (Shadowmourne is 4x more effective vs grunty than any other enemy). The problem with this is that it makes ONE item literally counter ALL items. That is not balanced. At this point, the only counter I can find to shadowmourne, other than playing a caster and just ignoring it, is to get a shadowmourne myself and hope to out shadowmourne the other guy. I feel at this point as if once Shadowmourne hits the field, it becomes an arms race to see which team can get more shadowmournes going first, since each one negates an entire hero's item set. It seems a tad silly to me. Yes, I am still striving to find ways to beat it, and no I am not saying its completely broken, but it is pretty much the only item at this point in the game that I have ever said to myself "well, I can't fight that at all" and had to go sell off most/all of my items and build specifically to counter ONE item. I wouldn't mind a build/talent/hero combo that forced you to change entirely to deal with it, but when it is a single item....ya. That seems a bit too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sogeking Posted October 21, 2012 Report Share Posted October 21, 2012 Shadowmourne is devastating against Grunty and generally forces an immediate retreat, but that's not why it's too strong for its cost. It's too strong for its cost because it steals AOE heroic and item passives such as those granted by coat of arms, superheated mantle, AOE runspeed bonuses (such as from voltron), cyprus passive, rory passive, lord zyrkhan passive, and on and on and on. It should be the most expensive item in the game by far so that only one player on a team is likely to buy it and so that whoever does it is likely behind on other types of items unless it's very late game. This will encourage using it as a team item instead of a "go solo carries in the jungle once i buy it" item and it will discourage AA carries from buying it. At it's current cost nova/grunty/boros/kerrigan/[AA hero here] can grab a shadowmourne without crippling her damage output and that's really dumb when you consider how incredibly shadowmourne scales (the stronger the enemy team's items are the stronger it is). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rem Posted October 21, 2012 Report Share Posted October 21, 2012 Maybe If we changed shadowmourne to cost 15k... Or made it negate the hero whos using its attack while a shadows active.... Only slightly kidding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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