early and late game

[coneroll]

For early game i would like to suggest to make the creep/lane progression flexible. I know this is extremely hard, but i believe this will make gnaking more interesting, especially on a safe lane( nearly impossible to gank safe players).

 

for late game, i would suggest making the entrance to the t3 wider, so not everyone get choked and get hammered with aoe, also making the t3 farther than the entrance so a teamfight will be possible without dieing in the entrance.

 

i also believe that there should be a snowball effect... i find it annoying that after you kill all t2 towers the enemy is just gonna camp behind the the base. and they can keep up there farm. also make the towers not do so much damage, it is extremely stupid to win a teamfight and have to wait 1 min for your creep to tank the tower, and by the time you reach their base, half of them respawned. it is not worth wasting 1hr+ jsut to kill the artifact. i confess that i have left games, because the enemy just camps on their base. it is stupid

[Adversary]

AGREED AGREED AGREED. I flobing hate wasting time at the T3 tower. With these new items for AOE casters it is way too easy to defend at the T3 tower, and it makes the pushing team get impatient, so they get very aggressive and end up dying to the tower. If the turtling team has the right heroes they are unstoppable late game and can win easily. (Boros, Zeratul, Kerrigan, Shadow, etc...)

[Ironsights]

So?

 

shouldnt the defender have some advantage, thus some hope of coming back?

 

If the pushers get impatient and lose, its their fault.

[JustZerO]

nope. usually, you get a benefit from killing camps in main base, and this is something i am missing as well. if you manage to kill these, you should get another advantage (like a stronger creep wave). otherwise, you have to push every lane again to get in base and push towers, and this is not the sense i think.

[Ironsights]

nope. usually, you get a benefit from killing camps in main base, and this is something i am missing as well. if you manage to kill these, you should get another advantage (like a stronger creep wave). otherwise, you have to push every lane again to get in base and push towers, and this is not the sense i think.

 

I would agree to this, as it is reasonable.

 

However, changing the T3 ramp to make it less defeinsible is wrong imo. That is what i was disagreeing with.

 

-1 to the earl and late game changes,

 

+1 to the "snowball" when you kill enemy barracks/gateways/whatever the hell they are.

[coneroll]

I would agree to this, as it is reasonable.

 

However, changing the T3 ramp to make it less defeinsible is wrong imo. That is what i was disagreeing with.

 

-1 to the earl and late game changes,

 

+1 to the "snowball" when you kill enemy barracks/gateways/whatever the hell they are.

 

It's extremely hard to get a teamfight on t3, and the enemy never goes down the base, and the tower does so much damage that it'll guarantee a killon the enemy. If you move farther to avoid t3youll get hit by the t4.

 

Soryy messed up post, I'm playing

 

EDIT: with the ramp, i meant to make a teamfight possible, without having to be a forced teamfight (getting pulled).

this was possible before the new items. Make the town bigger, so there is more spaces

[Misantrophy]

If they are camping on a t3 tower you just need to split and push different lanes. And yes, maybe some of the pushers will die, but as Ironsights said, the defenders need to have a chance to comeback..

[FruitNinja]

I would agree to this, as it is reasonable.

 

However, changing the T3 ramp to make it less defeinsible is wrong imo. That is what i was disagreeing with.

 

-1 to the earl and late game changes,

 

+1 to the "snowball" when you kill enemy barracks/gateways/whatever the hell they are.

 

The problem is that there is so much spammable AoE in this game that you can hold out indefinitely (every hero except some assasins has at least one damaging AoE ability. It's erekul's DPS spell, Dustin's entire skillset, Balrog's screech when maxed out first, cyprus, even kerri has an AoE ability...). You basically force the enemy team to towerdive in order to have any hope of actually killing the tower, and since towers do so much damage and have so much health, you're risking getting teamwiped because the defenders now have a massive advantage (better positioning, a huge tower with loads of true damage, a nice funnel for AoE abilities, easy access to pool....)

 

In this scenario, the team with, say, Maar, prevents any pushing from happening with Heat Wave Plus.

 

The other team thus needs to farm neutrals and stuff to gain a level advantage.

 

This leads to 20 minutes of neutral camp farming until the offensive team has enough levels to towerdive (if both teams are level 18, this is irrelevant and the team with better defenders is now impossible to defeat). One wrong move, though and they get teamwiped, allowing the team that's been sitting in base the whole time to simply push everything back and win the game.

 

This is stupid and bad game design, which is why heroes like Maar need to have their creep-killing power reduced as it prevents any and all pushing, even by dedicated tower pushers, since most pushers are so vulnerable to AoE in the first place. The defenders are completely unharassable. It's not that the losing team needs a chance to come back, they already have a huge advantage if they have some of the heroes with absurd base-defending potential. This kind of comeback is not interesting at all, it's simply a matter of who has specific base-defending heroes like Maar. Cyprus is also good at clearing, but he has to get closer.

 

If most AoE abilities did 50% damage to creeps, then I don't think we would have needed to remove spell leech either, so we can bring that back without making the game imbalanced again.

[coneroll]

If they are camping on a t3 tower you just need to split and push different lanes. And yes, maybe some of the pushers will die, but as Ironsights said, the defenders need to have a chance to comeback..

why would the defenders have such a big advantage, when they lost their early to mid game, it makes certain strategies worthless, jsut have to rely on good late game

[Ironsights]

The defenders need to have an advantage and a chance to come back or else the first team to lose all their t1 towers will likely just rage quit, preventing long and interesting games from ever happening.

 

This shouldn't be a base race game, its supposed to be strategy. If your strategy involves trying to push super hard super fast, thats great, but that does NOT make it imbalanced that the defenders were able to rally and hold you off.

 

When pushing against AOE, play like a Terran against Banelings. SPREAD YOUR MINIONS. I can't stress that enough. Even with their passive spell resist, Infested Marines from Unix melt when I clump them in a little ball in the middle of the fight or right next to the tower. Instead, spread them in groups of two so it takes multip AOE hits to kill them all. Do the same thing with Marine.King's Summon's and Bribes.

 

As for having to tower dive to kill the tower. Bull Shenanigans. Misanthropy said it perfectly right. Spread them out! If they are sitting on one T3 tower raping you whenever you try to push, leave two poeple to keep up the pressure, put two on another lane, and let teh last man work the last lane.

 

They will break. If they don't, you got outplayed.

[FruitNinja]

The defenders need to have an advantage and a chance to come back or else the first team to lose all their t1 towers will likely just rage quit, preventing long and interesting games from ever happening.

 

This shouldn't be a base race game, its supposed to be strategy. If your strategy involves trying to push super hard super fast, thats great, but that does NOT make it imbalanced that the defenders were able to rally and hold you off.

 

Naturally, the defenders have many advantages. But your logic is fallacious here--lowering the defender's advantage does not mean they no longer have an advantage, they just do not have as great of an advantage. What is wrong with toning down the ability of certain heroes to 1v5 an entire team when next to a tower? Defenders get a free funnel, easy shop/pool access, towers all over the place, etc. Yes initiation can take them out of their base. But this works both ways. Micro is notorious for being able to build full tank and just keep throwing people into towers with his absurdly long range, dealing massive True damage without much risk.

 

See: Maar, Dustin, anyone with long range AoE. The only counter to this is probably Tassadar since he has the longest pull in the game.

 

When pushing against AOE, play like a Terran against Banelings. SPREAD YOUR MINIONS. I can't stress that enough. Even with their passive spell resist, Infested Marines from Unix melt when I clump them in a little ball in the middle of the fight or right next to the tower. Instead, spread them in groups of two so it takes multip AOE hits to kill them all. Do the same thing with Marine.King's Summon's and Bribes.

 

You can't spread creeps though. I agree that minion spreading should be encouraged, but some minions (bio) can't be spread out either.

 

As for having to tower dive to kill the tower. Bull Shenanigans. Misanthropy said it perfectly right. Spread them out! If they are sitting on one T3 tower raping you whenever you try to push, leave two poeple to keep up the pressure, put two on another lane, and let teh last man work the last lane.

 

Some heroes have absurd defending potential. There is no hero except maybe bio (who is overpowered) that matches in offensive capability what some defensive heroes are able to pull off. Looking at mainly maar here.

 

They will break. If they don't, you got outplayed.

 

There is a problem with this statement. Either you are ignoring that there are factors other than skill and tactics that determine victory (team comp is one of them) or you are just making a useless and obvious statement (if "outplayed" means "they don't break"...).

[akanna]

personally i find it strange you can kill the final 2 towers and win without killing the side t3 towers

[FruitNinja]

I think that's fine since you can only really do it if you're waaaaaay ahead. It's already hard enough to end games quickly as is, even with a huge snowball.

[ShadowFlame]

AGREED AGREED AGREED. I flobing hate wasting time at the T3 tower. With these new items for AOE casters it is way too easy to defend at the T3 tower, and it makes the pushing team get impatient, so they get very aggressive and end up dying to the tower. If the turtling team has the right heroes they are unstoppable late game and can win easily. (Boros, Zeratul, Kerrigan, Shadow, etc...)

I completely agree... In my opinion, any team can win with the right heros. A team of Shadow-Nova-Darpa-Gravitus-Boros can win every game. Once at the T3 towers, no hero would dare come near; Gravitus and boros can bola or throw. Once at end of game, this team would be unbeatable (shadow-nova-darpa-boros hahaha)