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MAAR - Ultimate Turtling Strategy


ACiDPhoenix
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This is not necessarily an argument for nerfing MAAR, I simply want to initiate some productive conversation on the topic. Mods, if this isn't the correct section, feel free to move please. I am especially interested in what IOvOI has to say on this topic.

 

Anyhow, we literally just finished an inhouse where my team was way ahead and simply could not finish the game because of an enemy MAAR turtling and holding their base indefinitely.

 

Here's a replay for those of you that are interested:

 

http://www.sendspace.com/file/iczad7

 

I'll summarize the situation for those who are too lazy.

 

My Team: Vorpal, Grunty, Nova, Ironhide, Jackson

Enemy Team: Vorpal, Nova, Jackson, MAAR, Toximancer

 

We took an incredibly early lead, I believe 9-1 at one point, 21-3 at another, and had not lost a single tier 1 tower at this point in the game. We took Levi, got our buff, and tried to push their Tier 3 towers. WhaleTits, playing as MAAR, had his team turtle up to hold the base. With a huge amount of range and damage (for very little INT items), MAAR was able to just cast Heat Wave Plus (red fireballs) over and over and over, and even though we had a Spell Buffer, they took off about 1/4 of each of our HP every hit. We didn't crash the towers because we figured surely we would all die if MAAR could do that much damage and he still had 4 teammates that weren't even showing.

 

Eventually we got impatient and had to do something, so we tried to push in. This led to a very favorable team fight for Team WhaleTits. So they pushed in and essentially evened things up on towers while we were in the graveyard.

 

At this point we thought maybe if our Jackson could land a good ulti on MAAR and focus him down, we'd have a chance. The problem with that was MAAR was hardly ever visible. He stayed behind his teammates and cast orbs into the teamfights, making it near impossible for our Jackson to shut him down. The best team fight we ever had after this point was a 3 to 4 exchange in our favor, which allowed us to take 1 Tier 3 tower.

 

MAAR's ability to hold us out of their base allowed his entire team to farm and get to end-game items. Eventually they aced us by one of our towers and pushed in for the win.

 

Again, I am NOT saying MAAR is imbalanced, or anything like that. In the interest of learning and getting better at the game, I'm hoping some smart people can watch the replay and post some suggestions on what we could do. This game had my entire team stumped and I'm not the type to let a question mark hang.

 

IOvOI, I'm sure you've won games this same way and I find your insight very helpful! Hopefully this becomes a productive discussion, not a rage thread.

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I have noticed his heat wave plus does a lot of damage as well... There's not a whole lot you can do against a turtling MAAR because his Despair aura makes it even more difficult to get a bead on him... Especially if you don't have the right team comp.

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I assume the problem you are talking about is MAAR blasting away the creeps faster than you can push yourself. The fact of the matter is many heroes can do that. Also, were you trying to funnel 5 guys down the middle ramp into their base because that is where AoE spells such as heat wave plus do the most damage. The other thing I noticed was the only puller you had was Vorpal and I would guess he had neither an impact dial or small hadron collider handy to blink into a bunch of enemies and then surge them back to your team for a kill.

 

Now, I assume Whale was playing MAAR and went his straight int build (maybe a star fury thrown in for good measure though I didnt get the replay cause I don't like spyware on my computer) so if you could get to him, you could probably kill him instantly with pretty much any hero as you can do so to any caster hero with no defense. But the problem sounds like you were impatient and not using the right tactics.

 

Despair is a verrrrrrrrrry annoying passive as you suggest, but it is just that, annoying. Despair won't do anything at all if your whole team commits and stands ground in a fight, but if one or more of your teammates chicken out to attacking because you can't clearly see everything in the vicinity, then you are just going to die one by one. My guess is that is what kept happening as IH games are more about showmanship (i.e. not dying) than actually trying to win, so the fear of looking bad because you can't clearly see what you are attacking may of had some of your allies not commit fully to attacking.

 

Nevertheless, if you want to own MAAR super easy just get to the attack speed cap and get a stun baton. This item is ridiculous as it works right now, so much so I am surprised few players abuse it. It owns pretty much all casters but especially MAAR since he has to constantly generate orbs and if he is getting stunned every other second he will screw up producing them and besides actually cancelling orb generation randomly, it will also cause the MAAR player to accidentally create the wrong number of orbs so if he is trying to double sap he might try and sap but get stunned thinking he got the sap off and then double orb again causing him to create either vanguard aura or savior aura. There is also the good old fashioned gayzer (much better choice than spell buffer) which owns int build MAAR's very badly as well.

 

Also, since I didn't see the replay I have no way of knowing what items your teammates got but I suspect you lacked any utility items and instead your team built their heroes to one extreme or another (pure offense, or pure defense), which is just as bad an idea as going the extreme of pure int on MAAR.

 

Sounds like MAAR was not the problem, rather the problem was that his team carried him as well as the fact that you guys probably pushed 5 down the middle when you should of pushed 2 in each side lane and had a guy in the mid blast away the lane creeps as they exited the base and then rejoin in one of the other lanes to push. AoE heroes (like MAAR) can't defend two side lanes at once, so it really sounds like the braindeadness lack of strategy I have seen in the relatively few IH games from what you describe (everyone is stiff and trying so hard so as to keep up their reputation and not actually thinking and using common sense when it comes to winning). Not trying to be rude, but it just sounds like you guys made some stupid mistakes in finishing off the enemy team.

 

Next time when you have map control and want to finish the game, if your team cannot overpower the other team down the mid with your 5 guys, try pushing the side lane base towers with 2 players each and having a floater who can kill lane creeps efficiently (grunty of vorp woulda been a good choice here) and then rejoin one of the other two lanes. This as I described before forces them to split up and have the choice of chasing enemy heroes away or else eliminating the creeps, either of which will do some damage to the towers that adds up after a few waves. In the case of a hero like MAAR or another hero that can blow lane creeps to smithereens efficiently, they can't be in two side lanes at once, so try some divide and conquer next time.

 

And last but not least, though this strategy is rarely employed nowadays, if the other team is hardcore turtling you can just have your team farm neutrals nonstop and just let the lane creeps push out to the middle of the map and if you farm them at all, just execute last hits and deny everything else so the other team is getting no income other than passive income until your whole team is fully geared and then attack. Of course the game will take literally forever, but that strategy still works if you are trying to win at all costs.

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Thank you for your reply, as always. I agree that timidity on our part was probably what cost us the game. We considered split pushing as you suggest, but we figured MAAR could hold one tower and the other 4 could hold the other. And yes, part of the issue was Heat Wave Plus murdered all our creeps in one hit, so we would have had to tank the tower - and part of this was our poor team comp, the only "tank" we had was Vorpal, and he's hardly a tower-crashing tank.

 

We definitely should have went into a full siege mode mentality, where we farm all neuts and actively deny to starve them out. That's a great idea.

 

And Stun Baton, I had no idea how useful that item could be, I always disregarded it in favor of Force of Entropy, but they're not equivalent so that's a silly comparison that I've been making.

 

Anyway, I gleaned a lot of new info about MAAR from your post, and I will agree that the overall, general issue is lack of tactics in IH games. Those games are in general played with the same sort of team comps, same strategies, really standard boring stuff. InHouse needs some new, inventive tactics to shake up the "metagame" as it were. I would argue that this is the entire reason John+4 won the tournament. They hadn't been playing recently like the other teams, so they weren't stuck in a rut when it came to tactics and strategies.

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Actually, we did split push, which accomplished nothing. We also farmed neutrals, but that only gets you so far when you are fully itemized. Further, we had a stun baton and were trying to focus Maar, but unless the Maar player is bad, they will keep themselves out of range and force you to deal with their team. Also, split pushing and active denying are actually not very good strategies against Maar because they require you to separate your team. Maar can take advantage of that separation, using his ult to make sure his team has a numbers advantage. Further, I don't think that timidity was our main problem. When we did crash the tower, it wasn't the tower itself that killed us, it was the Jackson ult and Vorpal surge that grouped us together so Maar could AOE all of us. In other words, our attempts at not being timid were epic failures.

 

I also find it ironic that someone who never plays IH is making sweeping claims about the level of play and innovation present (or absent) in IH games. On what basis are you making these claims, owl? I have seen a lot of variety in IH games since the tourney. Also, the games leading up to the tourney were less innovative because people didn't want to expose their non-standard ideas until playing in tourney games. I think that the main reason John+4 won was because they generally managed to outperform in the draft, usually ending up with a better team comp, and they were much more coordinated than most other teams. Their choice of actual in-game tactics did not significantly vary across tourney games.

 

I have yet to see a suggested tactic that would have allowed us to overcome Maar, especially given that he wasn't alone. Whale was the Maar in that game and his response was not, "you should have done x," it was, essentially, "yeah, Maar probably needs to be adjusted a bit."

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Yeah I want to preface any of my comments by saying that I have VEEERRY limited inhouse experience. That's really the whole point of the thread from my point of view. Thank you for a counter-point Tukey. The game was somewhat of a frustrating blur for me, and you're right, we did try a lot of those things, to no avail

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lol what do you know about my maar build. i haven't played a game with you since... whenever it is you last played a game on mumble, or maybe even earlier then that

 

i assure you i had a good 3k+ hp, though i don't remember the exact number. as if i would get close enough to AA with star fury, im not retarded, they had a jackson and nova. and yes, thats with 700 int.

 

they tried split pushing. it takes me 3 seconds to kill a creep wave

 

they had taser, spell buffer, and two small hadrons (vorpal and jackson)

 

what they needed to do was have another taser, and probably an impact dial or two, to help close the gap. Grunty doesn't have the burst to kill maar lategame, so their only hope was Jackson ult and Nova/Ironhide bursting me down (the flob is vorpal going to do to maar). Nova definitely should have gotten a taser, but most of the time she got caught in our jackson's ult, which was more poor gameplay then anything. Also, in a game with two vorpals, ironhide cries himself to sleep, and then cries some more in his sleep, as his ult is screwed to high flob by the dual surges. that saved me multiple times.

 

As usual, your guesses are wrong. please watch the replay before making dumb assumptions

 

-----------------------------------------------------

 

tldr; Maar is great at turtling, but it took some pretty poor positioning (nova) and bad team synergy (ironhide) for protoss to throw that game

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So your MAAR build is pure int? Sounds like your team carried you, not the other way around. Yah you can play Kerrigan and just attack move in the rear with a pure crit build and do great if the rest or your team outplays the other team. Anyways, there are a lot of ways to play MAAR but pure int in my opinion is one of the crappier ways to play him. There was a time when you could use ihan to one shot heroes with SAP when SAP was 225% and ihan was 300 int, but since then the other team has to be pretty bad/dumb to lose to a pure int MAAR.

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ok lol

 

and what does kerrigan have anything to do with this?

 

more importantly, have you watched any part of the replay yet or are you still just pulling crap out of your ass as usual (in which case, i will request that you stop, or you will be reported for spamming/derailing the thread, as the thread is specifically about this game)

 

seriously, what is your problem buddy?

 

(phoenix, in case you haven't realised yet, lOvOl hates all IHer's guts even if hes never played a game or even seen them before in game, and he assumes that they are bad and should be ignored because they are elitists... which consequentially leads me to hate him for being prejudiced, retarded, and hypocritical, in that order)

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Before and at first, not write English very well but I will give my opinion.

I think the team played very bad loser, especially HironHide which had neither the Pyre, an object for the basic and indispensable. Maar has played well and behind the line of fire, as it should be. And last detail as you conform with carry spell buffer, nothing more is only 15% resist, you should have bought more pieces, and vorpal tank's play, not juice or what, I think I have played fatal certainly saw repeated heroes, that's not legal in-house.

 

I think there are too many whiners in the Aeon, so as MK heroes, are autobanned if this line continues to be the game had just banned all heroes, and the public will be fun.

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Before and at first, not write English very well but I will give my opinion.

I think the team played very bad loser, especially HironHide which had neither the Pyre, an object for the basic and indispensable. Maar has played well and behind the line of fire, as it should be. And last detail as you conform with carry spell buffer, nothing more is only 15% resist, you should have bought more pieces, and vorpal tank's play, not juice or what, I think I have played fatal certainly saw repeated heroes, that's not legal in-house.

 

I think there are too many whiners in the Aeon, so as MK heroes, are autobanned if this line continues to be the game had just banned all heroes, and the public will be fun.

 

This is a good point. If you are gonna be an aura mule for your team for spell resist, you might as well get Korhal Vanguard as well to give your team a base 20% spell resist aura.

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