highdrater Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Sorry for the spam, here it is combined for anyone who wants to read and make any serious comments about it: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Biotron 10/02/2012 Recommendation 1: Minion scaling with strength is too large.. reduce current damage and health attributes of minions by 33%. -This will allow aoe casters to kill minions more reasonably. For example, a vergil at the same level, farm, and skill level should be able to kill the bios creeps in an ult with two judgements cuts instead of 3 or 4. Recommendation 2: The range of his ult throw needs to be reduced by 4 units. -Though not as important as recommendation 1, a shorter ult throw would help balance bio by making him have to commit closer to someone to be able to release so much potential damage with the minions. This would make biotron actually have to towerdive like mostly everyone else to ult someone at their cannon. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Boros 10/02/2012 Recommendation 1: Shorten the duration of spell storm from 6 seconds to 4 seconds and increase the damage of spell storm in equal proportion to 45/75/105/135(+50int) spell damage/second. -Initially some might think this seems outrageous due to the fact that after a bola this would allow the spell storm to do more damage per unit time, but this is a negligible buff in damage for a few seconds if you do the math. The real problem with boros is his spell immunity. Of course a melee hero needs an equalizer such as vortex for shadow, void for zera, and bola for boros, but boros’ ability to run out in front with spell storm for so long and have spell casters virtually useless for 6 seconds is a way too long. Recommendation 2: Increase the bola cap range to 19 units. -Boros’ level 4 bola has a range of 10 units and the current bola cap range is approximately 14-15 units from the initial point of capture. At the current 14-15 unit cap range there is hardly any benefit from a dial or warp shard since the bola will cut off at ¾ the way there without the boros being next to the enemy. This would allow the bola to take the full route of a dial or warp shard since a dial is about 7 units and a warp shard is 9 units It was a good idea to cap the bola so people can’t troll speed builds and bola people across the map, but the current cap limits boros way too much. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Zera 10/02/2012 Recommendation 1: Decrease the ult bubble diameter from 9(whatever it is) to 5 units in diameter -This would allow zera to be actually useful in team fights with his ult. Lets face it at the current diameter of his bubble zeras ult is a flobing mess. Reducing the diameter would allow zera to selectively freeze certain targets without entangling his own teammates and all of the enemies. This would allow both sides of the fight to engage in aiding/defending the zera..well besides whoever else is in the bubble with zera. Recommendation 2: Bring old school zera back to where he only cloaks when he attacks an enemy from behind. -This will accomplish two things.. help zera farm early and help enemies actually be able to engage zera early game. Recommendation 3: Have phase strike scale have an added agi scaling attribute.. (100% weapon damage plus 30,60,90,120) to {100% weapon damage plus 30,60,90,120 (+40% agi)} -To put it simply, this skill doesn’t evolve like it should. Mathematically: 40% of 200agi is 80 more damage .. 40% of 300agi is 120 more damage for mid to late game. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Rancor 10/02/2012 The following suggestions are really drastic and probably controversial. What I’m trying to do is make rancor actually require skill to be so useful. The theme for my changes is as before, a pimp sniper. Like myself. Recommendation 1: Make rancor intelligence hero. Recommendation 2: Make passive to where if rancor stands still for 2.5 seconds he gains cloak..this effect will disperse upon movement and he gains 15% movements speed for 4 seconds afterwards. 15 second cooldown on the passive. Title it “concealment”. Recommendation 3: Change dead eye cloak field ability to a new ability called “Uranium Round”. This would add an additional 50/80/110/140 (+40%int) TRUE damage (RADIATION MOTHA flobA) to be dealt over the next 5 seconds.. it would also give sight for this duration 5 second duration in a small diameter of 3 units around the infected enemy. This would allow rancor to know where to scan in the next 5 seconds to nuke. This would NOT cloak rancor. -Currently rancor is able to be cloaked infinitely with ridiculous move speed. With my changes he would be more like a sniper and forced to actually be more interactive in the game rather than just infinite cloak – snipe. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Null 10/02/2012 Recommendation 1: Reduce magic missle range from 12 (or whatever it is) to 10 and increase cooldown to a flat 18 seconds for all 4 levels. -He already has passive of 5% increased time and the stun/silence built into a character is way too strong. This nerf will help defeat this op-ness, but he probably needs a whole revamping entirely lol. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vergil 10/02/2012 Recommendation 1: Change the 20% passive time under 30% hp to something else. -Vergil already has a Michael Jordan sized leap and an ult in terms of positioning and getting away. In other words, his survivability is superb as it is without the 20% time and it makes him near to impossible to kill unless you have his hard counters like rancor or cyprus. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Maar 10/02/2012 Recommendation 1: Fix the ability to create two orbs at once to fix the double sap. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Parallax & Electric Mantle 10/02/2012 Recommendation 1: Change electric mantle to active with 35 second cooldown to where it deals 150 (+75% str) dmg and stuns for 1.5 seconds. Recommendation 2: Change parallax to active with 35 escond cooldown to where it removes all debuffs n shap and cloaks. -The reason why electric mantle needs to be active is because when electric mantles are stacked on a team (when 3 or more players contain it), it basically takes out any aa heroes with a mediocre item. Alone and isolated it’s not so bad because it’s a linear relationship with stun and time but combined together it is an exponential relationship with stun and time. -The same concept for stacked electrics vs aa heroes is with parallax. It requires no skill and needs to be active. This is a game of skill and micro and these 2 items are only just limiting the low skill cap of a strength hero while giving it an op advantage. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peas Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Not sure why Banzai and/or other mods are so resistant to un-cluttering their forum. This thread is much much nicer than 10 seperate ones floating around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHydra Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Moved to suggestions. This thread covers multiple subjects. If you want to post in Character Balance, please focus on one subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banzaiguy Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Not sure why Banzai and/or other mods are so resistant to un-cluttering their forum. This thread is much much nicer than 10 seperate ones floating around. Because having a single thread to debate about Zera+Bio+Boros+Rancor+Mantle+Parallax+whatever makes it extremely easy to lose track of arguments and it'd be extremely difficult to focus on a single balance concern if people continuously give their opinions about something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
residente Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 I don't like any of the recomendations here, boros bola 19 range is just insane, the new rancor you purpose is extremly weak compared to our rancor, you can only cloak when you are still? :S Zeratul is very fine actually, reduce his bubble's diameter is stupid, because anyone will be able to scape from the bubble, anyway, parallax and mantle are fine too, they are items to counter some heros, they arent op and they arent up, i dont know why you want a change, last version we had too much active items, now some of this items have been transformed into passives, so that's better even if you are skilled or not, because you will still have a lot of active items... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shab Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 I don't like any of the recomendations here, boros bola 19 range is just insane, the new rancor you purpose is extremly weak compared to our rancor, you can only cloak when you are still? :S Zeratul is very fine actually, reduce his bubble's diameter is stupid, because anyone will be able to scape from the bubble, anyway, parallax and mantle are fine too, they are items to counter some heros, they arent op and they arent up, i dont know why you want a change, last version we had too much active items, now some of this items have been transformed into passives, so that's better even if you are skilled or not, because you will still have a lot of active items... You misunderstood the bola range, I think. He wrote that the bola range would be 10, but the break range (for instance if you use warp shard or impact dial) would be 19. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidChan Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 take away cloaking for paralex would be great.. but u cant tell if ur spell immune is activated or not without the cloak.. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bin Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 take away cloaking for paralex would be great.. but u cant tell if ur spell immune is activated or not without the cloak.. lol Where the spell immune comes from?? Did you mean debuff???? I guesst leave it as its for op rory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
residente Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 You misunderstood the bola range, I think. He wrote that the bola range would be 10, but the break range (for instance if you use warp shard or impact dial) would be 19. Oh yes i didnt read properly D: then i can agree with that, ut i rly dont like the warp bola, when i play boros i love play with impact dial :P Im having a lot of fun in dota with that item (i dont remember the name), specially because you can jump walls! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSEnergy Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 take away cloaking for paralex would be great.. but u cant tell if ur spell immune is activated or not without the cloak.. lol He said there would be still Cloak. Either way if Cloaking is too strong, a different animation could be proposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omnigear Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 vergil's heroic passive should not be a flat rate. it should tick faster at lower hp and slows down as he gets to 30% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coneroll Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 I don't like any of the recomendations here, boros bola 19 range is just insane, the new rancor you purpose is extremly weak compared to our rancor, you can only cloak when you are still? :S Zeratul is very fine actually, reduce his bubble's diameter is stupid, because anyone will be able to scape from the bubble, anyway, parallax and mantle are fine too, they are items to counter some heros, they arent op and they arent up, i dont know why you want a change, last version we had too much active items, now some of this items have been transformed into passives, so that's better even if you are skilled or not, because you will still have a lot of active items... The passive is weird, but, moving rancor to be an int, will make him stronger (do you see ppl build aa anymore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highdrater Posted October 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 I want the bubble diameter to be somewhat smaller so teamates can be more interactive in killing the frozen person. It will give zera a chance to be more useful with his bubbling. Okay so maybe i'm wrong with my 5 unit diameter calculation as opposed to the current 9.. but i think a 7 unit diameter would be a buff to zera. Lets consider the pros and cons of 9unit vs 7unit diameter 9 unit diameter will help engulf basically the entire fight so nobody but zera does shap for 3-5 seconds. this allows zera better survivability 7 unit diameter will sacrifice survivability but will allow zera to have aid from his teamates on the frozen enemy. and lets face it the tradeoff for survivability and help from teamates is a huge buff since zera controls when and where he ults. Am i the only person in the world to realize that very few units help zera during his ult because of the range? i mean the zera basically has to off-center his ult to where the enemy is on the edge for his teamates to help kill the enemy. why not have it to where the zera can ult 1-3 enemies in the teamfight without so much entangling his own teamates. it would be such a big buff on a pro zera that the enemy would be forced to buy a taser. I think infinite cloak on rancor is op because of his survivability and gank-ability.. you can't make proper judgements of a character until you play that character in an in house with good people in it. A blue gene stack on a rancor at his current int scaling is ridiculous considering his infi cloak + speed makes him a boii to kill early game because having to spend 120 for scans 1-3 times or even a truesight in the first 30 minutes of the game to be able to focus someone is just absurd. my changes to rancor were int hero making an int build give him more weapon damage, this will in return make his Q more powerful. however, his Q + deadeyecloaked has been removed to no more 150% bonus to the snipe, but i suggested an alternative that does a DOT in true damage and scales with int at 40% with a base damage and not plain out 150%. if you want to do the math on agility hero with current shap vs int hero with highdrater shap you will see its about the same. and as theorized on above i think cloak+movement speed for forever until you wanna engage is ridiculous. for the parallax, debuff every 8 seconds.. but the cloak/debuff last for 2 seconds so its really a 6 second cd. an active would be a more fair decision (with a 3 second cloak.debuff) because it wouldnt take heroes out of the game and would be a better reflection of skill. for example a grunty in a group fight has been marked and silence shotted by raynor and damaged by vergil for weapon reduction.. here he would use his active to get rid of that shap after the silence shot wore off and continue with his day. however it would be unfair if grunty had it automatically have parallax debuff everything for him WHILE he was under the effects of silence shot. and for 8 seconds later after it to only remove anything again. its retarded its op and it is not skillful. people need to learn how to use hotkeys if they wanna boii about actives. menu-hotkeys-createprofile-standard-global-inventory-zxcv instead of numpad1234.... boom and ur done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rem Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 While I agree on the parallax still a number of people have said it should be turned back into an active, a skillful prelate can already do exactly what you want him to do with his ult unless hes on a heavily melee based team its not really a problem, and if your a heavily melee based team... well why'd you pick a prelate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapricorN Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 for the parallax, debuff every 8 seconds.. but the cloak/debuff last for 2 seconds so its really a 6 second cd. No, only cloak last 2 secs, debuff immune will be for 0,5sec(or something like this) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highdrater Posted October 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 rem i think our opinions of who can help in zera ult are different because there are plenty of ranged heroes that get caught on the edge of it zera ult trying to help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rem Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 Thats true with a bad prelate (heck even a relatively average prelate), a bad prelates more dangerous to his own team than any other hero except a micro that's intentionally trolling you and even then its a close one. but pretty much every ranged hero excluding rory (due to his spells not being effective) and tychus do to his low aa range. can go to town on a well placed set of heros in a bubble, or you can use it to ult a set of heros you want out of the fight so you can go to town 5v2 or 3 on the rest of the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliwan Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 Zeratul's Ulti has like a 6 unit diameter, highdrater, as well as a 3 unit cast range. To keep things in perspective, Null has an AA range of 6.5 and thus... yeah. Changing it from "9 to 7" would be changing it from 6 to 4.75. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itsthatguy Posted October 5, 2012 Report Share Posted October 5, 2012 I don't agree with many the things... Rancor int hero will enable him to go AA + Int at same time (400 int will be +200 damage increases and his snipe is 50% weap so his base snipe too is increased). If rancor had to stand still for cloak, nearly every single enemy will know where he is when he cloaks and can target easily with any AoE ability. I personally think Null's final is the reason of his over poweredness. His final basicly makes him deal +100% Spell Damage (double casts). But upgrading it only upgrades the duration and most times the enemy escapes or is dead within 10 seconds. So the final gains little benefit but deals massive damage. (It would be like a cyprus that deals 600 [+125% int] +50 per pillar as a final but only gains +100 +10 per pillar as damage.) Its extremely strong early game, but nearly no benefit late game unless somehow the battle drags for 30 seconds and somehow, the enemy in range... Zeratul DOES NOT need a buff. I find him the second strongest hero behind boros. I c him used properly, and he massicures. I agree with Maar Biotron doesn't need a nerf. He needs a Late game buff and a early game nerf. He massicures early game but just flat out sucks majority the time late game. In my opinnion, I think Boro's Bola should scale around 10//11//12//13 Unit radius (Lower damage by about half), but Breaks at 12//13//14//15 Unit Radius. Making it so running is less effective and it pulls as far as the maximum pull. To make it more similar to micro and Mandrake so that moving doesn't matter as much. Boros SS doesn't exactly need to be 4 seconds since his final combo with it would just devestate. It also has a fairly high cooldown and if u up the damage on it, people will die much faster even if its the same damage like teleport and their CD delays. (Example Egon: If egon healed and did damage the same amount in 8 seconds instead of 12, the damage would be more concentrated all at once). I dislike Cloak on Parallax but hmm... I think the CD time needs to be slightly increased to 10 seconds maybe instead of 8. Parallax seems more about being lucky... P.S. Eletrical mantle seems like its doing WAY more than 150 spell damage, and more to around 150% the trigger weapon damage as spell damage (unless thats wat is supsoe to happen?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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