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[Raynor] Raiders are too weak


Eliwan
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Title sorta says all.

 

The Raiders that Raynor summons have the following stats at the moment:

 

Energy Cost: 80/100/120/140? CD: 35?

Raiders: Deal 20 [+20% INT] damage every 1.5 seconds, slowing for 10/15/20/25% for 1 second. Raiders have 100 + 12 * Lvl Life.

 

Now let's compare those to, say, MK's Marines or Unix's Infested-- who have almost the same damage per attack but attack much more often [0.8 vs 0.4 iirc]. They also have MORE LIFE than the Raiders, and MK's Marines don't have timed lifespans and also slow on attack (20%!). The cooldown on MK's is 25, and on Raynor I believe it is 35.

 

So yeah, they're pretty much useless except as Sentry Wards. The damage they add isn't significant compared to the rest of Raynor's abilities and IS is piss-poor compared to MK's or Unix's.

 

Here I have 3 options for some changes.

 

Main [1]-- Original, more detailed.

 

Raynor's Raiders [W]

Energy Cost: 45/60/75/90

CD: 25/22/19/16

Range: Drop range of 12, does not require sight. Raiders have range 6, sight radius 8

Raynor marks a spot and the Hyperion drops a Raider at the location via Drop-Pod. Raiders deal 32/48/64/80 [+40% INT] physical damage every 2 seconds, slowing for 10/15/20/25% for 1 second (does not stack, refreshes). Raiders have 100 + 10 * Lvl + [5% Raynor's Maximum Health] health and 60% Spell Resistance. Raynor may only field 2/3/4/5 Raiders at any given moment. If a Raider is killed, the enemy is granted a 3/4/5/6-mineral bounty from the Dominion.

 

Why:

These CHEAPER Raiders give Raynor multiple benefits:

1) More warding. This puts Raynor's warding ability a bit below Jakk.Summers' wards (which are cloaked). Though the wards may be TOO cheap, I disgress, as Raynor would have to sacrifice his damage early-game to put a level in these and then have them be wards instead of attacking (especially with that +10% damage boost!).

2) More utility for his teammates' escapes and chasing down enemies-- due to the lengthy drop time, the player will have to be skilled to chase effectively as well as making good escapes.

3) The increased life makes them not die instantly [currently they have 100 + 12*Lvl (or 100~316) health] to enemies. They also presently have no Spell Resistance.

4) With increased numbers, Raynor may support his allies from afar-- e.g. "Okay, I'll send my Raiders top to support while laning bot" sort of thing.

5) I believe that with 25 range, Raynor can send Raiders to, say, mid lane when he's at Levi or Aeon. This will give him much-needed ways to help from afar, given Raynor's abysmal strength and low base health. It might be too much, but the Raiders are actually pretty weak until higher levels (even then they only have 40 + 20% INT DPS with a 20% slow for 1 second-- 50% downtime on that sucker). They can still be killed extraordinarily quickly due to having only Spell Resistance-- a geared AA hero can kill them before they deal significant damage, especially considering they can only deal Physical Damage. Raiders can be used to scout ahead and prevent him from being ganked easily by dropping them just out of sight range (e.g. from your tower to the enemy's in mid, or in the jungle to catch the enemy unawares).

6) With the Raiders granting money when killed, enemies will find them attractive targets to kill every time they come around. However, since they do not grant EXP, this will only be useful for the more skilled players (and if Raynor's suiciding Raiders, you're taking damage).

 

tl;dr:

Change Raiders to drop one at a time, Raynor can have 2/3/4/5 Raiders, they cost less each, they deal more damage, slow for same. Health scales with Raynor's health. Gives money on kill.

 

Alternate Proposition: Plan 2

 

Energy cost: 80, flat.

CD: 30, flat. Can hold two charges. 1 between charges

Range: 10. Does not require sight. Raiders have aa range 6 and sight radius 8.

Raynor marks a spot and the Hyperion drops a Raider at the location via Drop-Pod. Raiders deal 20/30/40/50 [+20% INT] physical damage every 1.5 seconds, slowing for 10/15/20/25% for 1 second (does not stack, refreshes). Raiders have 100 + 15 * Lvl health and 60% Spell Resistance. Raynor may only field 2 [+1 per level of Stats] Raiders at any given moment.

 

This change allows for Raiders to be less strong than the other changes proposed while still granting Raiders the ability to not suck. Number of Raiders increasing with stats... because that just sounds COOL. Seriously.

 

tl;dr Raider damage scales with level and Raynor may field 1 more per level of stats. Has 2 charges for quick drops for scouting and other miscellaneous uses.

 

Radical switch: Plan 3

 

-Switch Command Aura and Raynor's Raiders.

Heroic Active [W]: Raynor's Raiders [Active]

Energy Cost: 65, flat.

CD: 20, flat. No charges.

Range: 8. Does not require sight. Raiders have AA range 6 and sight radius 8.

Raynor marks a spot and the Hyperion drops a Raider at the location via Drop-Pod. Raiders deal 20 [+20% INT] physical damage every 1.5 seconds, slowing for 10[/15/20/25 based on Stats]% for 1 second (does not stack, refreshes). Raiders have 100 + 15 * Lvl health and 60% Spell Resistance. Raynor may field 1 [+1 per level of Stats] Raider(s) at any given moment.

 

Ability 2 [W]: Command Aura [Passive]

Energy Cost: None

Range: 10.

Raynor's leadership emboldens nearby allies, increasing their Attack Damage by 8/12/16/20%.

 

This change allows for the player more freedom and more power when building Raynor, able to not worry much about being ganked early on. However, as the game progresses, Raynor may find it advantageous to take a level of Stats opposed to anything else so as to be able to slow for more and field additional Raiders.

 

tl;dr: Swap Command Aura w/ Raiders.

-Raiders drop 1-at-a-time, with slow and maximum number based on level of Stats

-Command Aura +8/12/16/20, instead of +10 passively.

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But that would be OP. I could use Raiders effectively and literally become unable to be ambushed. I just drop a Raider wherever I plan on going, perhaps I lose a Raider that's somewhere else-- no biggie, I just got sight of my blind area, and if the Raider dies I know that I can't go there yet, but if he lives he can be a mobile sentry ward.

 

I edited a few more things that are needed in the OP. XD

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i like the idea of raynor having more "followers"....as it was intended(remember the original raynor would add rines to every creep wave spanwning?), but op ness worries me a bit...yeah they could give money maybe, and depending on how frail they are it could be fine....frail + money on kill would make raynor not a "lanepusher" hero so no opness would be QQ ed

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Well, they have 8% of Raynor's maximum health. If Raynor builds tanky then the Raiders get some of that.

If Raynor builds... nothing but INT, then the Raiders will reflect that with minimal life (~260?).

Hrm, I must change that. I don't want them to be THAT squishy.

 

I remember the original Raynor vividly. I also remember his Marines being a bit OP at level 4, much better than having actually useful skills when you've got 10 Marines that deal like 50 damage every 0.5 seconds that have about 300 health.

 

The Raiders don't deal that much damage with these buffs, so they can't push lanes devastatingly compared to what they do now. I'm actually nerfing their damage a bit to compensate for a few other buffs that they're getting (e.g. their health).

 

Edit: Now if Raynor is Lv 18 with 2000 life, the Raiders will have 440 life, which is pretty good considering that Raynor'll have 2000 life pretty easy and even then can afford to be stacking INT items so his Killshot does approximately 1,000 damage to enemies with Marked For Death [not accounting for the +50% damage boost if they have <35% Life!!] with Gravity Edge, assuming they have no SR.

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Right now, I actually prefer marauders the way they are. If any change needed, maybe buff their cast range by ~3. You cast them where you expect the enemy to be, reveal any enemies, which are slowed and sometimes even stop to kill the 'rauders. As soon as you get vision, you mark them, and follow up with s shot and ultimate. Much easier to land the ss when enemies are slowed/ attacking something. They are like rancor's scan, except they don't reveal, but rather distract and disable in a minor way. Besides, Raynor is strong enough as he is, look at my recent replay for reference. :)

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I saw that. That's actually the final straw that made me make this topic.

 

 

Wait, you can drop Raiders in zones where you don't have sight right now? If that's the case then their range is fine so I should go back and change that to 12. I personally [and a lot of other people I meet] are just really annoyed that the Marauders deal no damage and die in a single shot. They're nothing but Sentry Wards without cloaking.

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I also believe that Raynor is fine the way he is, the marauders are generally unused because the people who use him don't have the skill (or patience) to drop raiders and use them how they are supposed to be used (TO SLOW). But, one thing that should be changed with them is their pushablility, right now they path around spawned creeps, IMO the only thing that needs to be fixed, or maybe an increase in range, but the damage isn't their main purpose.

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Not sure about ur guys builds, but for one the raiders damage is close to the MK marines. when i say that its they way they are built. marine king for a good build doesnt stack intel. each marine does about 40-60 damage if u get some intel. raynor on the other hand stacks intel, im normally at 500 intel with my build, so marines are at 120 damage. so both the 2 raiders and the 5 marines are close to damage, then u add in mk gives his marines attack speed where raynor gives his damage, 65% attack speed with my MK build, and 40% damage with raynor build. and if u want u can put use a coa on raynor to give his raiders more AS but its not needed.

 

now to break it down even more so when ur compare these units.

 

Marine King, totally based on his marines to do his job right. (with out marines or ulti unit he isnt scary)

 

unix, most good unix's only need marines for early game farm and push creep, other then that he ulti's most heros with out the use of marines. (ulti can one shot a glass cannon)

 

Raynor, based totaly on his spells. marines are used just to slow or to put a little more damage down. (ulti can one shot a glass cannon)

 

I do agree though with all the marines raiders and so forth needing more health or resistance, i like the idea of thier health being based off the heros health like bio's infested are. by the way with new items my bio build gives 800 health to infested and 100 damage, each.

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If raynor is getting an army, his spell damage output needs to be reduced. 8 second silence with enough burst to kill a squishy in one burst, plus a really good damage amp would be seriously OP as he would be a really good lane pusher, burst caster, and support hero all at the same time.

 

I support buffing marauders but right now Raynor would still be a great hero if he had only 3 abilities.

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I agree with buffing raiders and reducing his other spells. It would make him more flexible, which would be enough to compensate for his reduced aptitude in being a caster. At the moment, Raynor's raiders will probaby lose a fight to every summon in the game. Even if you consider Garamond's SCVs and Biotron's minions, I'm not really sure whether Raiders can 1v1 those. Sure, they can be used for scouting, but so can every other summon. It's just more of a waste to send away MK and Unix Marines since they're actually a good source of dps. The slow is useful sometimes, but they die really quickly and their drop time is quite long, so they're not particularly useful in sustained slowing of an enemy or catching runners.

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@jamesalot:

Raiders do not have the same DPS as Marines by ANY means even IF Raynor stacks INT and MK stacks STR. The Marines just attack SO FAST that it's not very potent. Additionally, the Marines have more health than the Raiders and there are 5 Marines to 2 Raiders. The Marines win every time.

I think maybe I might have gone overboard, yes, but new things are always OP? Nah. It's just that I feel that this is really important for Raynor as his Silencing Shot is not very useful to kill creeps (he must put himself in a bad position in order to do so).

I guess all I really want is them to drop one-by-one, have more than 2 maximum, and have them deal increasing damage with level as well as slow. And more health and SR and stuff.

 

@FruitNinja:

Yes, I guess. Maybe Mark could be reduced to 8/12/16/20 *shot*

But in all honesty I would like to see Killshot's damage lowered and Mark's amp lowered a smidgeon.

 

@Banzaiguy:

Raiders currently get owned by BioTron minions. Raiders can kill Gara's minions, but that's because Gara's minions by themselves deal very little. If it's Gara VS Raynor, though, the Raiders die really quick (to a single Seeker Swarm, in fact).

 

Really think they need a buff, maybe not as many as I list, but perhaps some? I'll start making what I feel are essential to make the skill useful.

 

OR MAYBE WE COULD SWAP COMMAND AURA AND RAYNOR'S RAIDERS *gasp*

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You guys have not seen ridiculous until you have pyre, nitro refit, force of entropy, and timesplitter on Raynor plus his raiders attacking a target. Basically, they are completely immobilized. If the other hero doesn't have a blink ability, warp shard, or impact dial then that hero is gonna die. Your last two items can be anything you want, but to say his raiders stink when they have a 30% slow attached to them probably means you don't know how to play AA raynor.

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Buffing Marauder's Health won't do crap. They will still get oneshot, unless you go really overboard with the buff. I suggest, have them summon 1/2/3/4 marauders who slow for 15%, for 1.5 seconds, stacking up to 3 times. if used as wards, Raynor has much more, if all together, they all still die to an AoE, but cannot be killed in as few attacks without splash damage. To compensate, increase silencing shot cooldown by about 3 seconds at all levels. That's would fix everything IMO.

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You guys have not seen ridiculous until you have pyre, nitro refit, force of entropy, and timesplitter on Raynor plus his raiders attacking a target. Basically, they are completely immobilized. If the other hero doesn't have a blink ability, warp shard, or impact dial then that hero is gonna die. Your last two items can be anything you want, but to say his raiders stink when they have a 30% slow attached to them probably means you don't know how to play AA raynor.

 

You can also get these items on heroes like toxi and marine king with similar results.

 

Buffing Marauder's Health won't do crap. They will still get oneshot, unless you go really overboard with the buff. I suggest, have them summon 1/2/3/4 marauders who slow for 15%, for 1.5 seconds, stacking up to 3 times. if used as wards, Raynor has much more, if all together, they all still die to an AoE, but cannot be killed in as few attacks without splash damage. To compensate, increase silencing shot cooldown by about 3 seconds at all levels. That's would fix everything IMO.

 

Add some spell resist so that they arent getting oneshot by everything. They need to be able survive to do their job which is to slow, not to do much damage.

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You can also get these items on heroes like toxi and marine king with similar results.

 

Yes and it is very annoying. Raynor of course has mark and two long range abilities to finish off fleeing heroes should they escape his grasp somehow, so that he does not have to chase into the heart of an opposing team to get the kill shot off while the other two heroes are gonna have to tank some serious damage if the hero you are chasing has some allies around.

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I didn't mean that his Raiders weren't useless. They just have no health so your tactic to make them immobile doesn't work-- they die in one AoE spell almost instantly, so they don't actually get to slow for more than a second or two. If you can kill the enemy in that time-- wait, I doubt it.

 

[@|OvO|]

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