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Darwin's Might


Shab

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With the implementaion of Shadowmourne, the nerf to Darwin's might was probably not needed. Not sure why it was nerfed in the first place (didn't play more than like 1 game on the last patch), but at the current moment it doesn't leech for nearly enough on it's active.

 

Simply put, if the enemy get's a shadowmourne and attacks you as a dps hero, the only thing you can do is run, while if darwins might (which is more expensive) leeched for a higher amount, then it would be possibel to stand and fight.

 

I don't really feel like writing a long post about this, I'm just gonna state that Darwin's might in it's current form is underpowered. (so is shinobistyle too btw).

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I believe DM does plenty of leech, specifically on dps heroes. Ex. Kerri: 300 dmg per attack (mid-late game, about the time you might purchase DM). Thanks to passive with bounces (each bounce does 20% less dmg), in one attack, you would recover 300*.25=75hp + 60hp + 48hp + 38.4hp + 30.72hp = 252.12hp recovered per attack! Of course this doesn't include armor resistance, but it also doesn't include the active of Darwin's Might. That number gets extremely large while using DM's active.

 

I understand that Kerri is an extreme example of using leech, but if any buff happened to DM, then she'd be even more ridiculous. Nova can do easily 1k true damage late game thanks to crit builds. Add in 75% leech, that 750hp recovered per attack (granted, a true crit dmg build does not include Darwin's Might typically). With the new patch, DPS and burst dmg has dramatically increased. It only makes sense to decrease the leech a bit to compensate, otherwise AA heroes would be unstoppable. Also, I am not positive if leech includes crits, or just the physical damage done assuming no crit. Should test this, unless someone else already knows... (1000 crit dmg*.75 = 750hp or 500 physical dmg*.75 + 500 crit dmg = 375hp)

 

As for shadowmourne, 75% damage versus 75% leech every attack, which they pretty much cancel out, assuming you are attacking a hero. Shadowmourne is supposed to help counter AA heroes.

 

First post on AoS!

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I believe DM does plenty of leech, specifically on dps heroes. Ex. Kerri: 300 dmg per attack (mid-late game, about the time you might purchase DM). Thanks to passive with bounces (each bounce does 20% less dmg), in one attack, you would recover 300*.25=75hp + 60hp + 48hp + 38.4hp + 30.72hp = 252.12hp recovered per attack! Of course this doesn't include armor resistance, but it also doesn't include the active of Darwin's Might. That number gets extremely large while using DM's active.

 

I understand that Kerri is an extreme example of using leech, but if any buff happened to DM, then she'd be even more ridiculous. Nova can do easily 1k true damage late game thanks to crit builds. Add in 75% leech, that 750hp recovered per attack (granted, a true crit dmg build does not include Darwin's Might typically). With the new patch, DPS and burst dmg has dramatically increased. It only makes sense to decrease the leech a bit to compensate, otherwise AA heroes would be unstoppable. Also, I am not positive if leech includes crits, or just the physical damage done assuming no crit. Should test this, unless someone else already knows... (1000 crit dmg*.75 = 750hp or 500 physical dmg*.75 + 500 crit dmg = 375hp)

 

As for shadowmourne, 75% damage versus 75% leech every attack, which they pretty much cancel out, assuming you are attacking a hero. Shadowmourne is supposed to help counter AA heroes.

 

First post on AoS!

im pretty sure true damage doesnt leech

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True Damage doesn't leech, so any crit build on Nova or anyone else severely hinders the amount of leech that hero gets.

 

It doesn't severely hinder leech. When you crit, only the bonus damage is true damage. The rest of the normal weapon damage is physical damage which you leech from.

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True Damage doesn't leech, so any crit build on Nova or anyone else severely hinders the amount of leech that hero gets.

 

Not necessarily... Does getting Khali Blade hinder her Leech? Not really, sure it takes the place of a leech item, but it is a DPS item adding quite a bit to her attack to leech from while also adding quite a bit to her Critical damage and chances... Since the True damage is added and not converted like it is from Masamune. Most other critical items add weapon speed or damage which helps out with DPS and therefore healing from leech, though I'm pretty sure none give leech, but that doesn't stop you from buying critical and leech items.

 

Edit: Darn your ninja post Adamantium...

 

Edit2: On the note of Shadowmourne, it's really only powerful due to item effects procuring. If it did just weapon damage, most AA has good armor to lower that 75% by quite a bit more. Though I dislike the idea of the more I increase my DPS, the more I hurt myself... Barbed Plating is one thing where the 30% is low enough that Leech makes it viable to counter and at least I am dishing damage to an opponent, whereas Shadowmourne, I may not even be attacking my opponent and I am receiving 75% of my damage... I find Shadowmourne quite difficult to counter...

 

Also as many people have already said, getting the item is a no brainer, if you're fighting any other AA carry, that one item is effectively increasing you're damage output by 75% or more if you have similar DPS or less than your opponent...

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With the implementaion of Shadowmourne, the nerf to Darwin's might was probably not needed. Not sure why it was nerfed in the first place (didn't play more than like 1 game on the last patch), but at the current moment it doesn't leech for nearly enough on it's active.

 

Simply put, if the enemy get's a shadowmourne and attacks you as a dps hero, the only thing you can do is run, while if darwins might (which is more expensive) leeched for a higher amount, then it would be possibel to stand and fight.

 

I don't really feel like writing a long post about this, I'm just gonna state that Darwin's might in it's current form is underpowered. (so is shinobistyle too btw).

 

I dont know why it got nerfed further to be honest, it was fine as it was. The price got increased and it got nerfed as well. (id say the 40 wpn dmg is an even trade with the 7 armor it used to give).

Now that its gotten nerfed again i dont think its a very viable item for many builds.

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If you've built crit, you should be at max attack speed and be killing an int hero in less time than it takes for the illusion to kill you. Also, if you don't build on-hit items (e.g. pyre), you don't die as quickly.

 

I was playing raynor earlier with full items and a shadowmourne, and I'd still get melted by the enemy darpa or grunty. I only had an advantage when I could escape quickly after summoning the clone.

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If you've built crit, you should be at max attack speed and be killing an int hero in less time than it takes for the illusion to kill you. Also, if you don't build on-hit items (e.g. pyre), you don't die as quickly.

 

I was playing raynor earlier with full items and a shadowmourne, and I'd still get melted by the enemy darpa or grunty. I only had an advantage when I could escape quickly after summoning the clone.

 

So to a point, you're saying don't get on-hit items if someone gets a Shadowmourne... How does an AA carry deal with a tank with Shadowmourne then? If you can't build on-hit it would be extremely difficult to kill them, especially if they've built armor. Unless Criticals do not procure with shadows from Shadowmourne, that would be the road to go.

 

Also, I don't find it outlandish on characters such as Raynor, because he is a squishy, Strength heroes bother me for the most part(especially the AA ones with range), like Tychus and Kerrigan.

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AA carries SHOULDNT be dealing with tanks.

 

Tanks are meant to counter AA carries. Kill the tanks with caster support. Burst damage the tank to half health or less, and THEN let the AA carry finish the fight.

 

Remember, no matter what you have been able to do in one pub or another (and keep in mind that I play pubs exclusively, mostly since i havent bothered to download mumble) this is a team game, and NO hero is meant to be able to take on and kill all of the other heroes. Even Boros, the epic assassin, has a couple heroes he really shouldn't engage alone (Drake, for instance, if equally geared)

 

Shadowmourne is meant to both help and hurt AA carries. As an AA carry, shadowmourne lets you o your job better and offers an edge over other AA carries. As a Tank, shadowmourne offers a counter for AA carries. Ultimately, this is what is intended.

 

Keep in mind the Trilogy.

 

Caster die to Carries

Tanks die to Casters

Carries die to Tanks

 

This is the core of most MOBA style games. Sure, certain heroes may break this "rule", and certain items/builds may allow you to negate parts of it, but ultimately this is the most simplified way to view balance.

 

Thus, if you are beign murdered by a specific hero, look at the situation and see if it fits the rule, so to speak.

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AA carries SHOULDNT be dealing with tanks.

 

What? Are you high? AA carries are meant to kill everything in the late game. If tanks was supposed to counter AA carries in the late game, they would be extremely overpowered, and there would be no reason to play anything but tanks, this isn't WoW we're playing small son.

 

If anything, casters kills dps because dps heroes doesn't have the health pool to survive the comboes of the casters, tanks die to dps, because they don't have the damage to kill them, and the dps heroes have sustained dps, not a single burst of damage like casters. And tanks beats casters, because casters can't one shot the tanks (and are pretty much useless when their spells are on cooldown). I have no clue where you've gotten this triology idea from, but it is completely wrong.

 

EDIT: I have read your post several times now, and I still can't believe what I'm reading. I don't think you quite understand the meaning of a carry to be honest. A carry is supposed to be able to kill an entire team, of course, it's a team game, but that doesn't mean that a carry isn't supposed to be able to output enough damage to kill an entire team. The team is supposed to provide cc, and a buffer for the carry, to be able to do his job, and saying that casters counter tanks is just.... wrong, I'll leave it at that. If anything a caster hero should use their huge spells on the enemy carry, because he is the one dealing the most damage, and he is also one of the more squishy heroes in the enemy team (except for underleveled and underfarmed support heroes). Why would you ever attack/use spells on a tank in a team fight? Tanks aren't supposed to deal damage anyways, they're supposed to be (mostly) initiators, there's a few exceptions, like Tychus (which is still retarded overpowered afaik), and Bristleback. I guess spectre is also kind of a tank, at least that's how you build here. But generally speaking, tanks (or strength heroes) are usually initiators with huge team fight spells such as drake, sand king, earth shaker, micro, tidehunter, thus you want to silence them or kill them before they get their combo off, which is hard most of the time, thus great positioning is required in team fights, and if they do get off their full combo, there's no incentive to kill them, since they're not really gonna do much after that.

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First, please dont resort to name calling, and second I don't play wow.

 

Let me try and clarify for you.

 

Tanks beat Carries.

What I mean by this, is that most carries are designed around sustained DPS as you stated. Tanks are designed around high health and damage mitigation. Therefore, if a tank has high health and high damage mitigation, whereas the carry/AA has sustained DPS but low health, the tank should be able to endure the continued damage of the carry long enough to break the glass cannon.

 

Carries beat Casters.

Most casters are squishy. They come in three main flavors: Burst, Support, Crowd Control

Burst Casters are assassins, much like carries. These deal heavy damage, meaning against a carry its a quick draw contest. The carry SHOULD be faster, and have more escape options, allowing it to win out.

Support casters are crucial to a team, but usually pretty vulnerable on their own. They come with escape tactics, but a carry should be able to make the kill before these are activated.

Crowd Control Casters are AOE powerhouses, and are again crucial to team fights. Carries have the ability to make these monsters disappear before they can wreak total havoc.

The thing all the casters have in common is low life. Thus the sustained DPS of a carry will tear down casters before they can unleash their full potential.

 

Casters beat Tanks

As mentioned above, casters deal loads of damage, but need some time to do it. Tanks tend to have huge life and armor, but be slow and lack escape options. Thus casters have teh time they need to crumble the life tally of tanks, finishing them outright or leaving them too damaged to survive the next volley or an attack from an AA hero.

 

Some notable exceptions to this general rule.

 

Spell resist items on Tanks gear them for fighting casters. This makes the tank able to endure the assault of a Burst caster and make the kill. However, it comes with two drawbacks. One, is that most tanks are relatively slow, meaning even if it can endure the assault, it can't always make the kill. Two, it becomes MORE vulnerable to carries sicne it has less damage mitigation and more spell mitigation. There is also the point to be made that an anti-mage tank likely can't do much against support casters, in that it can't catch them. The purpose of this version of the tank is to wade through CC and survive bursts to keep the casters occuppied while others do the killing.

 

A mixed carry can be built. The most notable is the tank/carry merger, in which you build a tanky character, with reasonable damage mitigation that still deals good damage. The first example that comes to midn for me is Lord Z. He is well rounded when built like this, and able to handle most heroes in an acceptable fashion. However, he is still vulnerable to pure tanks (tychus, drake) in that they will have more life than him, and more damage mitigation, so it becomes a matter of who survives longer. Items like pyre push the favor in Z's direction, whereas items such as electric mantle can give the edge to the tank. What lord z in this form excels at is killing carries, since he hasthe DPS to beat down a glass cannon and the life to live through it.

 

Life Leech is a problem for these definitions, and where I believe a lot of the confusion among AoS players is coming from. Life leech was VERY prominant, and could be stacked to exceptional levels. This allowed glass cannons (little life, huge damage) to survive things that they should not. Tanks couldn't kill carries, because the carry was recoup9ing far more life than the tank could deal damage, and thus the tanks got tore apart. Casters couldn't get the job done in a straight fight because carries are meant to break them. And so we saw many games become AA wars, as carreis fought with each other as other toons were useless.

 

This problem is being addressed. More tank items mean that tanks can do their job. Lower life leech means that glass cannons are actualyl fragile, as they always should have been. Your statement that carries are meant to kill everything in the late game tells me that you do not appreciate true balance, and that you prefer to be able to "pub stomp" once you get to a certain point. That is not the point of a carry, except that it has become that in some sense. A carry was meant to "carry" the team by removing critical aspects of the enemy team, not by remomving the enemy team! This newest patch is putting things back in line, and I approve.

 

Has this cleared up my reasoning to some extent?

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Tbh ironsight I stopped reading, cause there is no way in hell, that's a properly built caster can burst a properly build tank, it is impossible, casters will burst carries all day long as the carries don't have the HP pool, there is no caster in the game that can kill a fully geared tank with 7K HP with there combo, but AA carries will continue to destroy tanks (may take abit of time) but the will kill them with sustained damage as shab has said... I have no idea where you got these ideas from, because they are plain wrong, any Moba player with some degree of experience will tell you the same.

I calculate Damage outputs of the heros of carries and casters and yes in 1 second a caster can do a hell lot more damage to anyone compared to carries but in 5 seconds a carry does a lot more(late game I'm talking about) and this is why carries counter tanks and casters counter carries, and lastly tanks counter casters.... Simple as that, I'll try read through you post again, but honestly it makes no sense, and makes me sit there squinting at the ceiling...

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Shadowmourne is really broken. It literally make most of AA carries useless. The only way to counter this item is to sacrifice your damage output for more tankiness. But what is the point of being AA carry then if u can't do enough damage? Without damage u can't leech to much then u dying fast anyway. How u suppose to handle tanks in this case? The most broken part about this item is that shadow proc target items effects, like FoE, Pyre or Explosive Retrofit passive. So it is not only hard counter AA carries but also hard counter some specific items like FoE for example. Its pretty stupid when u can't run away from your own shadow. Besides item is relatively cheap and its effect is passive - working all the time. There is even no internal cooldown. Really? This item has to be redesigned:

-change passive into 8 sec active with 1 min cooldown

-shadow shouldn't proc any target item effects, shouldn't crits, etc.

-if it wouldn't be enough nerf its weapon damage more

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The caster is not meant to burst the tank to death unless the tank is already damaged, and YES a caster CAN one shot burst a glass cannon carry, BUT the carry can do the same to the caster.

 

Hence, between burst caster v carry it is a quick draw contest.

 

However, when tanks are involved, a carry really cant handle a heavy tank. They might get 40-50% damage on the tank, but then its over. That is why you need a burst caster to counter the tank. Caster uses burst spell, takes 50-60% off the tank, pops him a couple times with AA and finishes with a new spell OR burst and let teh AA carry finish the tank.

 

Tanks are not meant to be killers, per se, but they are meant to eat damage. In a one on one fight, a heavy tank should out last a DPS carry on virtue of durability.

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The caster is not meant to burst the tank to death unless the tank is already damaged, and YES a caster CAN one shot burst a glass cannon carry, BUT the carry can do the same to the caster.

 

Hence, between burst caster v carry it is a quick draw contest.

 

However, when tanks are involved, a carry really cant handle a heavy tank. They might get 40-50% damage on the tank, but then its over. That is why you need a burst caster to counter the tank. Caster uses burst spell, takes 50-60% off the tank, pops him a couple times with AA and finishes with a new spell OR burst and let teh AA carry finish the tank.

 

Tanks are not meant to be killers, per se, but they are meant to eat damage. In a one on one fight, a heavy tank should out last a DPS carry on virtue of durability.

 

Carry SHOULD handle tanks. it's their JOB.

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