[1.42] Dustin's missiles

[FruitNinja]

First of all, the energy cost is really high. You pay 30 extra energy for 50 extra damage, compared to most spells which cost 20 or so more for 60 damage. Because of this, I always keep the missiles at level 1 the entire game.

 

But anyway, I think they're boring to use. I think that despite how unique the utility drone is as a concept, Dustin gets maared marred by the fact that his missiles are a boring ability that is generally good for killstealing and pressing W for additional damage. Could ekco maybe think of a change that would make it funner to use? Pressing W and watching your opponent take damage isn't engaging for either the player or the target. If it was, say, a missile barrage from the drone that dealt damage horizontally and slowed people in the trail it leaves behind for 3 seconds, then you'd give Dustin some nice CC, better burst (probably) and in general a funner playstyle, not "spam spells and use missiles when target runs."

[Midknight]

Dustin has a particular playstyle that appeals to particular types of players. If he's not your cup of tea, he's not your cup of tea. Blithely disregarding his missiles as just a "boring killsteal ability" is disregarding the concept of hero diversity. Personally, I don't like Tosh, Tassadar, or Marine King because I'm quite bad at managing adds; but that doesn't mean I insist that they should be changed to do without those adds and it doesn't mean that I disregard the skill that other players have with those attributes. Dustin isn't just about burning spells whenever they come up. Each missile has long range, hits up to 4 targets, auto-targets even through fog, and prioritizes heroes. If you just burn them without considering if you're maximizing appropriate targets, then you're playing him poorly. He's a highly strategic hero and, frankly, most people who play games like AoS are tactical types, not strategic. Dustin already has two abilities relying on the drone, one of which being a skill-shot. There are already enough problems utilizing the drone in terms of placement and the laser canceling the drone burst and vice versa. Not to mention that currently Dustin can drop his drone to lay down an AoE field and walk away while still having his missiles available. Your proposed change means he loses strategic significance because he can't plant his drone in one spot and operate in another field. In short, Dustin is perfectly fine the way he is... if you don't like how he functions, don't play him just as I don't play Tass, Tosh, or Marine. "Boring" isn't a point of game balance.

[FruitNinja]

Argh, no paragraphs makes your post kind of hard to read.

 

I don't think you can say I have no reason for calling an ability boring. The ability is simple to use, deals damage instantly, and while it does hit cloaked units, so does Dustin's Q and E. All of his spells hit cloaked units, and he can see them because of his passive.

The ability itself isn't special, it's just the fact that it's garaunteed damage. The problem is that while your critique that it's a strategic ability and not tactical is true, the cost of not spamming it is roughly half of Dustin's burst. It's useful while laning but in practice, it mostly lets you hit people that are otherwise too far with the click of a button.

 

My complaint is then not that it's useless, but that it's boring. It basically means that if you're running and Dustin hasn't put it on cooldown yet, then you're dead. It gives Dustin a specific advantage against other heroes, but saying this ability is boring does not disregard hero diversity. I can accept that it's different from other abilities, but really, there aren't that many situations in which the missiles are useful against fully visible enemies. The range is nice, but it's far more satisfying to land a laser beam onto your enemy at a distance using the E to position the drone. Don't you agree?

[jamescossey]

I was going ot say something similar to what midnight said but not as classy. dustin is a support hero and u gotta keep that in mind when u play him. as for ur slow his missiles do that already, just pick up the retrofit and a good amount of cool down reduction and u can keep a team of 4 slowed all day long.

[FruitNinja]

...I never said they were weak (I did say that the energy cost made leveling them somewhat pointless). I said they were boring.

 

Using retrofit to keep an enemy slowed by mashing W and then going HURR DURR at the screen doesn't sound like it alleviates the problem.

[Omnigear]

boring dustin is boring =p

 

now viron thats the hero ^_^

[Midknight]

Argh, no paragraphs makes your post kind of hard to read.

 

I don't think you can say I have no reason for calling an ability boring. The ability is simple to use, deals damage instantly, and while it does hit cloaked units, so does Dustin's Q and E. All of his spells hit cloaked units, and he can see them because of his passive.

The ability itself isn't special, it's just the fact that it's garaunteed damage. The problem is that while your critique that it's a strategic ability and not tactical is true, the cost of not spamming it is roughly half of Dustin's burst. It's useful while laning but in practice, it mostly lets you hit people that are otherwise too far with the click of a button.

 

My complaint is then not that it's useless, but that it's boring. It basically means that if you're running and Dustin hasn't put it on cooldown yet, then you're dead. It gives Dustin a specific advantage against other heroes, but saying this ability is boring does not disregard hero diversity. I can accept that it's different from other abilities, but really, there aren't that many situations in which the missiles are useful against fully visible enemies. The range is nice, but it's far more satisfying to land a laser beam onto your enemy at a distance using the E to position the drone. Don't you agree?

 

I'm not saying you have no cause to call it boring. I'm saying that "boring" isn't an aspect of game balance. If you find it boring to play Dustin, don't play Dustin. Play a hero you find exciting if that's what you're after. Cyprus is a nice alternative. Missiles are used to apply Gravity Edge and Nitrogen Retrofit, regardless of whether the targets are visible or not. And I do remember a rather epic chase I had tailing a Micro all the way from zerg base back to toss base, firing off alternating lazers and missiles until I finally landed the kill-shot on his ramp for a monster kill (back when missiles had 20 range rather than 15). If the nature of the missiles made Dustin unbalanced, of course I'd say change them. But they don't, so I don't.

[Aellectris]

So what? Erekul is a boring character, Kerrigan is a boring character, etc. That doesn't mean that you need to entirely change them. Plus, I don't find Dustin's rockets boring, You have to know exactly when you can use them to maximize the number of enemies hit, etc. Plus, the mana cost is the only thing preventing unlimited damage thanks to his ult. Honestly, I don't know why you start so many meaningless threads.

[FruitNinja]

So what? Erekul is a boring character, Kerrigan is a boring character, etc. That doesn't mean that you need to entirely change them.

 

This is a game, so actually, they should be changed if they're boring.

 

Plus, I don't find Dustin's rockets boring, You have to know exactly when you can use them to maximize the number of enemies hit, etc. Plus, the mana cost is the only thing preventing unlimited damage thanks to his ult.

 

Not everyone's (biased) opinion needs to agree for something to be boring in concept.

The mana cost is almost nothing if you keep it at level 1. I never run into mana problems anymore since I stopped leveling it, and it still does a lot of damage due to INT scaling.

 

Honestly, I don't know why you start so many meaningless threads.

This has nothing to do with the content of the threads. People might be content with the game as it is, but at least there are some people like me who think there are problems with the way the game is heading. New items don't mask broken heroes. There is no excuse for problems that have only gotten worse since 6.0. If people can't make an argument that a hero is boring, then let's add this hero into the game and see how it turns out.

 

Besides, if you think my threads are pointless, then don't reply to them. There's nothing forcing you to read my posts, and it's not like the rest of the posts in the balance section are better. After all, you're an enlightened inhouser, right?

[Midknight]

Comments now with 100% more bold flavor.

 

This is a game, so actually, they should be changed if they're boring.

Hana yori dango: Dumplings over flowers. A Japanese saying that means utility is more important than aesthetics. Dustin has a part to play and to change that part simply because a few people object to how boring they find that role to be is asinine at best.

 

 

Not everyone's (biased) opinion needs to agree for something to be boring in concept.

The mana cost is almost nothing if you keep it at level 1. I never run into mana problems anymore since I stopped leveling it, and it still does a lot of damage due to INT scaling.

Just because something is boring to one group doesn't mean it's boring to others. Again, the only point you seem to be making is that playing Dustin is "boring". That is not an objective criteria on which to base a change. Furthermore, as multiple people have pointed out, there are those who find Dustin exciting to play. You do nothing to establish your point by disregarding other people's points of view. If you think he's boring, don't play him.

 

...

 

Besides, if you think my threads are pointless, then don't reply to them. There's nothing forcing you to read my posts, and it's not like the rest of the posts in the balance section are better. After all, you're an enlightened inhouser, right?

The thread is pointless because you have no objective point to make on Dustin's mechanics. Your thread all but amounts to "I don't like this hero, change him for me". That's not a valid topic in Character Balance. Sotis Chat? Fine. Sure, you think Dustin is boring, discuss away. But Character Balance discussions require an objective and analytic perspective to be meaningful. If you think missiles are problematic in terms of game balance, present your argument. But "boring" isn't an aspect of game balance.

[FruitNinja]

Hana yori dango: Dumplings over flowers. A Japanese saying that means utility is more important than aesthetics. Dustin has a part to play and to change that part simply because a few people object to how boring they find that role to be is asinine at best.

 

You don't really know if it's a few people. I posted this in part to see what other people think, but the only people who've posted so far are you, aellectris, and james, which is hardly representative of the whole community.

 

This is a game. Fun should always be the top priority in a game. If you think AoS is for eSports, go play LoL.

 

Just because something is boring to one group doesn't mean it's boring to others. Again, the only point you seem to be making is that playing Dustin is "boring". That is not an objective criteria on which to base a change.

 

You can't say it's fully subjective, as there are certain qualities which are objective regardless of the player. The ease of use, the lack of special status effects, the accountability, etc, are all objectively measurable statistics.

 

Furthermore, as multiple people have pointed out, there are those who find Dustin exciting to play. You do nothing to establish your point by disregarding other people's points of view. If you think he's boring, don't play him.

 

Multiple people = you + aellectris.

 

Way to go.

 

The thread is pointless because you have no objective point to make on Dustin's mechanics. Your thread all but amounts to "I don't like this hero, change him for me".

 

This is an oversimplification. If you don't like the thread, then fine, but don't make claims you can't back up like "only a few people think dustin is boring." I'm saying that the missiles are boring and don't add much to his playstyle. You just come in and say I can't say an ability is boring because it's subjective. If you're going to do that then you can disregard all of hero design as anything can be considered fun going by your standard.

 

Seriously, just use your criteria to decide whether or not the hero I linked to should be added to the game. Or do you even have criteria for establishing good hero design if it's subjective?

 

If you disagree, then say so, but keep the personal comments and misrepresentations aside, please. You're on the internet, assuming you are a decent human being you should step up and be more civilized.

[sTeveN]

troll dustin:( wp yesterday thou, idk wut's wrong with rock:(

i like tinker better than dustin cuz tinker could refresh item cooldowns :)

[FruitNinja]

Heh, we had no real initiator that game. We were getting owned until your drake quit for some reason. Why'd he leave anyway, RL problem?

[Aellectris]

"Boring-ness" isn't something particularly objective, so shouldn't matter much in terms of balance. Also, all of these biased opinions you're referring to also aren't about balance. That said, I think boring heroes should be changed, but dustin isn't boring as a hero, he just as an ability that isn't a skillshot. That's like saying that Raynor's Q should be changed because all you do it click on the hero to get them.

 

There are criteria for good hero design, those being things such as balance (which this isn't), ingenuity, utility, and yes, how fun a hero is. That said, this thread isn't that useful because you don't offer much explanation as to why it's boring, you just assert that it's a kill steal ability, whereas I give reasons that it's not so boring.

 

On "go play LoL":

A: You don't give a reason that Dustin's missiles aren't fun. I think even if they are boring that they're fun.

B: If it's for fun, you don't have to play Dustin. We can both have fun, and have different heroes at the same time.

C: Games are competitive, hence there being a winner and loser. Thus, fun isn't always the top priority.

D: Even if fun is the top priority, the competition is the fun part, not each individual hero's playstyle.

 

 

On "you're just two people":

A: Two to one.

B: This just demonstrates the point about subjectivity.

 

 

 

In reference to the bottom:

A: Never said I was a human being.

B: Never said I was decent.

C: I've been perfectly decent and civilized (which, by the way, isn't objective).

D: Morality doesn't exist anyways, so it doesn't matter much.

E: What was misrepresented? It doesn't seem to me like anything was.

F: Honestly, quit harping over the fact that I play inhouses, and make a response to Midknight and my logic. We have logical justification for what we've said, and your response was functionally "WELL YOU AREN'T EVERYONE!" It doesn't matter if other people respond, if they don't have any logical justifications for what they say.

 

In short, don't be an ignoramus.

 

Oh, and don't try to argue with me unless you're prepared to have an intelligent conversation and have good reasons. It's a battle of wits, and you appear to be unarmed.

[Eliwan]

I concur with everything (yes, everything) that has been said in this thread.

 

Dustin's Missiles are boring[in the same way that Kerrigan and Erekul are for the most part], but they are strategic. There are reasons to use and not to use them.

 

Frankly, what bothers me more is that Obs/Radar Towers don't have immunity to Dustin's Lazor and as a result Dustin > Warding.

[Apocalyptic]

I like Dustin's missiles - ya they take a bit less skill to use than most but they fit well with the character IMO. I think dustin is fun to play as a whole and fairly well balanced.

 

Also, not leveling his missiles ever seems like a terrible idea... I can understand leveling them last but never? That seems so silly.

[FruitNinja]

Oh, and don't try to argue with me unless you're prepared to have an intelligent conversation and have good reasons. It's a battle of wits, and you appear to be unarmed.

 

...?

Do you really think this highly of yourself?

If you're going to be disingenuous then there is no reason for me to argue. The problem is that you're constantly trying to turn it into a battle of wits, which I have no interest in. Go do it somewhere else.

[xSEnergy]

...?

Do you really think this highly of yourself?

If you're going to be disingenuous then there is no reason for me to argue. The problem is that you're constantly trying to turn it into a battle of wits, which I have no interest in. Go do it somewhere else.

 

HAHHAAH nice response :)

[Peas]

Read half the thread. Couldnt bear the FruitNinja slaughter any longer.

[Aellectris]

...?

Do you really think this highly of yourself?

If you're going to be disingenuous then there is no reason for me to argue. The problem is that you're constantly trying to turn it into a battle of wits, which I have no interest in. Go do it somewhere else.

 

This is what I'm referring to. You don't respond to anything except for a li'l quip of mine that has nothing to do with the point at hand. I just reeeeaaalllyyyy wanted to use that line, calm down. It's a pretty awesome line.

[FruitNinja]

Read half the thread. Couldnt bear the FruitNinja slaughter any longer.

 

Look I don't care what people think of me. If the philosophy behind AoS is going to remain "competition > fun" as allectris is suggesting, then so be it, I'll stop trying to find a fun way of playing it. This game makes me sick now.

 

You don't respond to anything except for a li'l quip of mine that has nothing to do with the point at hand. I just reeeeaaalllyyyy wanted to use that line, calm down. It's a pretty awesome line.

 

Because I was already arguing with Midknight and he said roughly the same thing?

Besides, Midknight is a straightforward debater. I respect him even though I disagree with him. I don't care how right you are, but if you're going to make personal comments in your first post then I don't see why I should respond to you since you're not looking for a real discussion anyway.

 

If you really want a full reply then here you go.

 

B: If it's for fun, you don't have to play Dustin. We can both have fun, and have different heroes at the same time.

C: Games are competitive, hence there being a winner and loser. Thus, fun isn't always the top priority.

D: Even if fun is the top priority, the competition is the fun part, not each individual hero's playstyle.

 

A: You made this point later in the same post. Answering later.

B: No problem, I don't even play Dustin that often. I just think he's underplayed and making his W give something more (like some CC which he is in need of) would mix up the compositions we normally see.

C: Let me get this straight... the point of competitive gaming is to satisfy your ego by asserting your superiority over the other player? I definitely hope that gaming hasn't fallen to that level.

D: See above. If the goal is the end and not the means, then I don't see why you would be playing AoS in the first place since other games are a lot more balanced and representative of skill.

 

On "you're just two people":

A: Two to one.

B: This just demonstrates the point about subjectivity.

 

A: Unrepresentative Sampling

B: I never brought up ad populum, you did.

 

A: Never said I was a human being.

B: Never said I was decent.

C: I've been perfectly decent and civilized (which, by the way, isn't objective).

D: Morality doesn't exist anyways, so it doesn't matter much.

E: What was misrepresented? It doesn't seem to me like anything was.

F: Honestly, quit harping over the fact that I play inhouses, and make a response to Midknight and my logic. We have logical justification for what we've said, and your response was functionally "WELL YOU AREN'T EVERYONE!" It doesn't matter if other people respond, if they don't have any logical justifications for what they say.

 

A: We could go on a loooong tangent about this :)

B: It is good to be decent, by the definition of decent. I don't ad-hom so I won't really attack you as a person, but I won't argue when someone doesn't take it seriously.

C: "In short, don't be an ignoramus."

So what if it isn't objective? If you use "it's subjective" as an excuse to be rude then there are a lot of things you can justify, like trolling.

D: What does this have to do with anything? You can share your worldview with us if you'd like in a different thread. I don't see what your moral subjectivism has to do with Dustin's W ability.

E: I said that it's too easy to use (one click). It also doesn't contribute to Dustin's burst (there is a strategic way of using them, but without using it Dustin loses a lot of his burst and he's one of the few actual burst casters in the game, the most obvious one being Cyprus) in a fun matter. When you are bursting someone down, the only thing you have to do is press it to deal the damage. This is not fun for the target since there is nothing to dodge and it is not fun for the strategic player either because firing your missiles in your burst doesn't really take much thought.

So really, in this case Dustin's W would only be fun for the one who values the end goal of winning over the means.

[Aellectris]

Look I don't care what people think of me. If the philosophy behind AoS is going to remain "competition > fun" as allectris is suggesting, then so be it, I'll stop trying to find a fun way of playing it. This game makes me sick now.

 

 

 

Because I was already arguing with Midknight and he said roughly the same thing?

Besides, Midknight is a straightforward debater. I respect him even though I disagree with him. I don't care how right you are, but if you're going to make personal comments in your first post then I don't see why I should respond to you since you're not looking for a real discussion anyway.

 

If you really want a full reply then here you go.

 

 

 

A: You made this point later in the same post. Answering later.

B: No problem, I don't even play Dustin that often. I just think he's underplayed and making his W give something more (like some CC which he is in need of) would mix up the compositions we normally see.

C: Let me get this straight... the point of competitive gaming is to satisfy your ego by asserting your superiority over the other player? I definitely hope that gaming hasn't fallen to that level.

D: See above. If the goal is the end and not the means, then I don't see why you would be playing AoS in the first place since other games are a lot more balanced and representative of skill.

 

 

 

A: Unrepresentative Sampling

B: I never brought up ad populum, you did.

 

 

 

A: We could go on a loooong tangent about this :)

B: It is good to be decent, by the definition of decent. I don't ad-hom so I won't really attack you as a person, but I won't argue when someone doesn't take it seriously.

C: "In short, don't be an ignoramus."

So what if it isn't objective? If you use "it's subjective" as an excuse to be rude then there are a lot of things you can justify, like trolling.

D: What does this have to do with anything? You can share your worldview with us if you'd like in a different thread. I don't see what your moral subjectivism has to do with Dustin's W ability.

E: I said that it's too easy to use (one click). It also doesn't contribute to Dustin's burst (there is a strategic way of using them, but without using it Dustin loses a lot of his burst and he's one of the few actual burst casters in the game, the most obvious one being Cyprus) in a fun matter. When you are bursting someone down, the only thing you have to do is press it to deal the damage. This is not fun for the target since there is nothing to dodge and it is not fun for the strategic player either because firing your missiles in your burst doesn't really take much thought.

So really, in this case Dustin's W would only be fun for the one who values the end goal of winning over the means.

 

Outside of the joke-esque parts of what I said, I think we mostly agree. Like I said, I wanted Dustin made more interactive a while ago. That said, I still don't think it's an issue of balance.

 

On your last point, however:

You say that it's not fun because there's no way to dodge it, and it's just a missile that will hit someone, that having guaranteed damage is a bad thing. What we should have instead, you claim, is more skillshot-based abilities.

 

But think about this: Why would we want skillshots? Well, because it shows who's better at the game. It's fun by virtue of being competitive. Thus, either A: Guaranteed damage is totally cool because we just want to play and don't care that much about who's better, or B: We care about who's better, and so try to win.

 

 

Either way, you seem to confuse me as incredibly ego-centric, when I'm not particularly egotistical outside of the comments on being one of the top of the mumble server. Once people disagree with that, I'll gladly refrain from calling myself that (I never claimed it back when I started on mumble). Even the people who don't like me (e.g. Corsa) think I know how to play the game well. I don't have an overly high opinion of myself, I have an accurate one.

[Rem]

Personally, the funnest game I'd ever played was Zyncs Mages Magic and Mayhem. It was a Moba style game with some unique twists that I've never seen another game replicate effectively but thats not the main point Im trying to make here

 

 

Nearly everything was skillshot based, there were 2-3 aoe's that just straight up hit you if you were in range, and one class of magic (every hero was a mage) that primarily dealt in single target click to hit abilities.

 

It was an incredibly skill based game dodging and juking through massive numbers of spells flying from each team and ridiculously fun. I fully support implementing a more skill based centered game play for aos. Not because the current mechanics are boring, but because In my opinion such game play is simply more fun and challenging.

[FruitNinja]

Outside of the joke-esque parts of what I said, I think we mostly agree. Like I said, I wanted Dustin made more interactive a while ago. That said, I still don't think it's an issue of balance.

 

I must have missed your point then, sorry about that.

 

I don't think it's necessarily a balance issue either, but changing it could change the balance of the game even if slightly.

 

On your last point, however:

You say that it's not fun because there's no way to dodge it, and it's just a missile that will hit someone, that having guaranteed damage is a bad thing. What we should have instead, you claim, is more skillshot-based abilities.

 

But think about this: Why would we want skillshots? Well, because it shows who's better at the game. It's fun by virtue of being competitive. Thus, either A: Guaranteed damage is totally cool because we just want to play and don't care that much about who's better, or B: We care about who's better, and so try to win.

 

Skillshots make the player more involved and require more situational thinking, I would say, so it makes the game funner for tactical thinkers. They don't always alienate strategic thinkers like Midknight described. For example in LoL, you can play Lux and Morgana with their linear skillshots that root people. These shots are mostly easy to dodge, so a good time to actually use it is when the enemy is retreating in a straight line so that if they dodge it, you will gain ground on them anyway because they have moved sideways and not forward. You can also use it while the enemy is running alongside terrain so that they can't dodge in one direction, so you can aim more to the other.

 

If it was just a targeted ability like Taric's stun, then rather than representing different types of skill (predicting your opponent's reaction, using terrain to your advantage, etc) you'd just represent timing and a bit of positioning. By letting the player use more of their skills, it's more satisfying to the player (which I think makes some heroes fun, like cain's skillshot requiring some aim but also requiring a bit of coordination with other people because if someone attacks the stunned enemy right after he gets stunned, the enemy goes free right away.) while also giving the guy who's being hit less of an excuse to complain (e.g. no skill! you just clicked me!).

 

Either way, you seem to confuse me as incredibly ego-centric, when I'm not particularly egotistical outside of the comments on being one of the top of the mumble server. Once people disagree with that, I'll gladly refrain from calling myself that (I never claimed it back when I started on mumble). Even the people who don't like me (e.g. Corsa) think I know how to play the game well. I don't have an overly high opinion of myself, I have an accurate one.

 

I think you play the game well because I haven't seen you ingame but players seem to regard you as a good player, so I'll just assume you're a good player since I have more reason to think so than not.

[residente]

I find Dustin very entertaining to play >_<