[1.40] INT Balrog is useless...

[FruitNinja]

Did BHM get nerfed or something? I can't 1hit raynors anymore with my ult...

 

EDIT for Adamantium: I've noticed that Balrog's Bloodbath ® at level 3 doesn't seem to be doing near the same amount of damage it used to do in the past. Previously, using it in conjunction with Black Hole Magnum would take out a massive chunk of the enemy's hitpoints. However in a game I just played, I had a BHM and my ult was at level 3 and yet I could barely do 1000 total damage to the enemy raynor.

 

I think what might have happened was that Black Hole Magnum might now only deal damage equal to the hero's actual weapon damage rather than the physical damage used to proc it. If this is the case, then INT balrog is now no longer viable and I'd like to hear an explanation as to why since BHM was not a problem at all for any other hero in the past.

 

I'll test it right now to check.

[Omnigear]

need more int =p

[Rem]

Raynors typically have more hp now, were not using a slot on our startrecks and theres alot of new int items to use.

[residente]

stack hp and hp like hell and you will eat raynor with auto attacks

[Adamantium]

You have say... 24 hours to provide a decent opening post.

[Midknight]

Best way to build Balrog is HP and Attack Speed. HP boosts Vampirism and Attack Speed lets you apply that Vamp bonus damage more frequently. For Balrog, I start with a Buckler and Leech Blade then work to the core build of Organic/FoE/LightningRod/Arcbound and then replace the Buckler and Blade with supplementary items depending on who I'm up against. I think Int scaling is really more to prevent his specials from getting too strong.

[FruitNinja]

I'm not talking about the best way to build Balrog. I'm saying that INT balrog was semi-viable in the past but has been getting less viable ever since, which is a shame because he's turning into another one-sided character with only one good build (MASS HP MASS WEAPON SPEED).

 

This is happening to a lot of characters, imo, like Cain. Timescale Cain isn't as good (or easy to get) since the new items, same with Tosh.

[Midknight]

If you build him off Int, you'll also have to stack timescale reduction to cycle his skills faster since it's just the two attacks that scale with Int. And furthermore, the Ult deals physical while screech deals spell so even an item like Argus Crystal that boosts spell damage is only partially useful. Also, IIRC BHM deals damage based on Weapon Damage now, not damage dealt. If you're stacking Int, you're likely not stacking WD so BHM isn't going to do quite as much as you expect. An Int Balrog is a melee-sniper: Lunge in, screech, Ult, get out (Phase-cloak, warp-shard, etc), cycle cooldowns for another pass.

[WhaleTits]

BHM, Occelots, and Starfury no longer proc on skills

 

So before, when you bhm and ult, it did the damage with your ult. now you hafta AA (and it won't do 1.5x the damage of your ult, but just 1.5x the damage of your AA)

[lOvOl]

There are now plenty of very high damage tank items that when mixed with a BHM can still do serious damage with Balrog (I think Galactic defender gives 80 weapon damage), just that you have to space out his skills a little bit. For example you Q, attack, wait a sec, W, attack, wait a sec, then R, and attack (or else go Q, R, W). But to answer your question building him for int now is like building Zeratul for int (well actually not quite that bad). BHM is still very viable on him.

[Spooky]

I think crit build become more viable for him as his vampirism can crits as well. Try out:

- Arcbound Ravenger/Shadowmourne

- FoE

- HoM

- Contamination Shard

- Khali Blade

- Organic Carpace

[FruitNinja]

Why the heck are people so intent on discussing other builds for Balrog!

 

I do not care about building full crit at the moment!

 

 

Anyway, I wonder why BHM no longer procs on skills. Was Balrog considered overpowered before?

 

Also, IIRC BHM deals damage based on Weapon Damage now, not damage dealt. If you're stacking Int, you're likely not stacking WD so BHM isn't going to do quite as much as you expect.

 

Yeah, this is the problem I was noticing. The Ult can't 1hit a squishy hero anymore because BHM doesn't work like that now.

 

An Int Balrog is a melee-sniper: Lunge in, screech, Ult, get out (Phase-cloak, warp-shard, etc), cycle cooldowns for another pass.

 

He's still decent in mid-game because your team can follow up. Blarog can survive burst and kill a cyprus before the team kills him.

 

The main falloff is late-game though, since his ult becomes a nuisance due to armor. If BHM was changed, why were the nerfs on Balrog's ult changed?

 

I suppose one can do an INT build to start off then transition into melee/tank.

[Midknight]

If armor is giving you a hard time, you could pick up a masamune, but it won't benefit his screech any.

[FruitNinja]

Masamune only increases timescale now, doesn't give true damage anymore.

[lOvOl]

Masamune only increases timescale now, doesn't give true damage anymore.

 

Yah it seems like an item that would actually harm your hero more than it would help.

[FruitNinja]

I think masamune would have been best on balrog since he is tanky, but I don't think 15% timescale is worth 18% damage amplification all the time.

[Aellectris]

He's a tank. He's not a caster. Oh noez, the tank isn't viable as an instakill caster anymore! That's a good thing.

[WhaleTits]

GOOD THINGS ARE BAAAAD

 

YOU GOT RAPED BY THE 300 CS CHOGATH!!!

 

new user mid...

[FruitNinja]

He's a tank. He's not a caster. Oh noez, the tank isn't viable as an instakill caster anymore! That's a good thing.

 

Characterizing your opponent's arguments like that isn't really a polite way of getting across a message.

 

What do you mean by tank? A tank that's not a threat just gets killed last and does nothing.

 

INT balrog was viable in the patches prior to the new one. I don't see why he was made less viable late-game because building INT requires sacrificing a lot of things (damage, armor/spell resist, etc). The point is not that INT balrog should be added as a viable strat, my complaint is that it's constantly being made less and less viable with changes that affect only him. Why was his ult damage nerfed in the first place? Why is it still in its nerfed state?

 

Why is it a good thing that a fun build was taken out?

 

GOOD THINGS ARE BAAAAD

 

YOU GOT RAPED BY THE 300 CS CHOGATH!!!

 

 

new user mid...

 

Fed INT balrog is still good :)

You just need to end the game quickly, the difficulty of which is a discussion for another thread.

 

 

Once again, I'm not arguing that ekco add anything, I'm just arguing that there's no reason to nerf INT balrog as he used to be a nice, fun-to-play melee caster. Now building INT items is unviable late-game, so you can't do it in serious games anymore.

 

Was it ever overpowered? Cyprus can kill people in one combo people from a distance, Balrog had to do it from melee range.

 

I just don't see any reason to nerf it. Why not keep it the way it was?

[xSEnergy]

He's a tank. He's not a caster. Oh noez, the tank isn't viable as an instakill caster anymore! That's a good thing.

Characterizing your opponent's arguments like that isn't really a polite way of getting across a message.

 

What do you mean by tank? A tank that's not a threat just gets killed last and does nothing.

 

I thought Aellectris was changing for the better after that mumble vs pubstar thread lol...

 

A tank sounds like you just tank.... not dps. If you want to play tank and dps play tychus or keri. Can't think of a tank that would need lots of INT. Although I've seen troll builds with INT keri. -_-

[Midknight]

A tank has a big honkin gun mounted on it. Don't tell me that a tank isn't supposed to do damage. Furthermore, I don't think heroes do well when designated as a single role; flexibility is important. Some will play Balrog as a Tank but I typically play him as a Scrapper. You could play him as a Caster or a DPS but those roles don't fit as well. They're doable, but it will take more effort to garner less results. If you're going to make an Int build for Balrog, you'll have to accept that he's not going to tank and he's not going to dish out consistent damage; he'll spike the damage then fall back. He'll be support to jump in and slow a target with lunge, remove debuffs with screech, then get out with some form of cloak, sprint, or teleport and wait to make another pass. Tanking, you build him for HP and resistance with a team buff item (ie. CoA) and a debuff item (ie. Chilling). He won't do amazing damage but his prescience on the field makes him a threat. As a Scrapper, you build for HP and Attack Speed. DPS you build either for crit or go the whole pyre/attack speed route and largely eschew the Vampiricism bonus.

[NoWaterJustIce]

funny that real tanks dont actually tank :( they get one-shot by missiles

[WhaleTits]

balrog can tank even without dps items.

 

when a giant brutalisk jumps in the face of your team's carry nova, or tosh, or even shadow, and proceeds to start eating his face off with shadowmourne, shrapnel cloak, and a force of entropy, you go ahead and try not focus firing him and see what happens to your poor aa carry.

[FruitNinja]

I thought Aellectris was changing for the better after that mumble vs pubstar thread lol...

 

A tank sounds like you just tank.... not dps. If you want to play tank and dps play tychus or keri. Can't think of a tank that would need lots of INT. Although I've seen troll builds with INT keri. -_-

 

There are tanks that initiate, and tanks that do a lot of damage. Only Drake and Micro are STR and actually have good initiation moves. Vorpal is a good example of a caster tank, he needs to build INT to do lots of Q-R damage although he (like balrog) can do full tank and still provide some support.

 

Kerri is a DPS tank. Starscream is a DPS tank. Cain is an assasin tank (lol). Vorpal is a caster tank.

 

Balrog is normally a DPS tank, but that requires you to build either health or WD in addition to weapon speed.

 

However, his INT scaling is good enough that with the old BHM you could also play him as a caster, and it was fun for the time being.

 

A tank has a big honkin gun mounted on it. Don't tell me that a tank isn't supposed to do damage. Furthermore, I don't think heroes do well when designated as a single role; flexibility is important. Some will play Balrog as a Tank but I typically play him as a Scrapper. You could play him as a Caster or a DPS but those roles don't fit as well. They're doable, but it will take more effort to garner less results. If you're going to make an Int build for Balrog, you'll have to accept that he's not going to tank and he's not going to dish out consistent damage; he'll spike the damage then fall back. He'll be support to jump in and slow a target with lunge, remove debuffs with screech, then get out with some form of cloak, sprint, or teleport and wait to make another pass. Tanking, you build him for HP and resistance with a team buff item (ie. CoA) and a debuff item (ie. Chilling). He won't do amazing damage but his prescience on the field makes him a threat. As a Scrapper, you build for HP and Attack Speed. DPS you build either for crit or go the whole pyre/attack speed route and largely eschew the Vampiricism bonus.

 

I agree that building balrog as an INT hero isn't the way he's intended to be played. But why should a developer try to squish these alternate ways of playing him if they're possible in the first place? I think ekco should at least revert the ULT nerf so it scales with 200% INT again. He's a nice burst caster, as you mentioned, which some usique aspects (lunge, debuff immunity) that normally don't exist on casters. This is what made him fun, the fact that a build that totally wasn't supposed to work actually somewhat did.

[Spooky]

IMO Balrog never was viable as caster. Maybe he was able to one shot squishy hero with his ulti, but problem was range and casting time. If u played against well-organized team INT Balrog couldn't do a shap because he was dying way to fast. Anyway I'm not surprised with BHM change. From some reason after patch 1.5 BHM started proc spell damage based on physical damage before mitigation. So it was huge buff to this item. Immediately Balrog ulti became ridiculous with Ocelot or BHM which allowed u one shot almost every INT/AGI hero. It was the only time when he could be played as caster because he could get many tanky items as well. Before patch 1.5 BHM worked in different way so Balrog needed many INT items to be powerful caster as armor reduced damage dealt significantly.

ATM he really suck as caster and shouldn't be played this way. His ulti has short cd and mainly is for using on creeps to get stacks. Sometimes can be as last hit to hero which is already out of Balrog AA range. He is still very strong char, especially mid game and with good composition behind him.