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The game is too item dependent


JustZerO

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As the title already says, i think the game becomes more and more item dependent instead of skill dependent.

 

After the recent patch with many new, powerful items, i feel like there are too many situations in which you die with no chance because of maybe 1 better item of your enemy. Of course, items have to play a role in this game, but now that we even removed boots, we have 6 item slots that can be geared with a lot of brutal items.

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Anyway, the game as it stands is definitely imbalanced. It seems more skewed toward having more money than your opponent being an auto-win. This doesn't always happen, but I'd prefer to reward smart thinking and tactics as well as strategy. If the game was all about having items that counter your opponent, then we might as well make it turn based.

 

I think we at least need more item-independent heroes like rory. Rory can benefit from a lockbox really well but his spells don't really depend on INT to be useful. He can support a team regardless.

 

Maar is a support but he doesn't really have enough CC or tankiness to be item-independent.

 

Sentry is a monser right now, and I don't see why the heck you wouldn't build him as an INT carry.

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Anyway, the game as it stands is definitely imbalanced. It seems more skewed toward having more money than your opponent being an auto-win. This doesn't always happen, but I'd prefer to reward smart thinking and tactics as well as strategy. If the game was all about having items that counter your opponent, then we might as well make it turn based.

Yah well usually that's how team fight occurs right? Like opposing teams vying for Aeon for those +250mins or for Levi for the buff and +400mins. More money is better and is exactly the "reward" that you're talking about isn't it? I mean what other type of reward would you want if someone is good within the first 10 minutes of the games and gets a few kills? I don't really see how there is any other way. Otherwise you might as well not attack opposing teams and play Sim City or grow crops and spray them with pesticides. What the hell do you want lol... Your logic doesn't even make sense since money is the only reward in AoS. If you can think of something that's beneficial other than money then I'll give you props...

 

Also I don't think you read above, Ekco gave infinite money to the pub team and Whales and his team still won. Your argument is invalid. You only need one case to prove yoru hypothesis wrong.

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Guys, balance is ongoing. Saying "the game is completely imba" isn't helpful. Give specific things that need to be changed. Balance is ongoing, and crying foul any time something is a bit too strong doesn't help. Not to mention that some heroes are just easier to play, and most people aren't that good. Some heroes that aren't considered that strong are ungodly powerful in the hands of the right players.

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nope

 

we just played a pub where ekcol gave the pub team max money at around level 16, when we had ~2 tier 4 items. we still won.

And what does that proves? Experience > Brute force... i think anyone would agree with that, still your argument does not prove that end-game is simply item dependant...
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And what does that proves? Experience > Brute force... i think anyone would agree with that, still your argument does not prove that end-game is simply item dependant...

 

Guys, balance is ongoing. Saying "the game is completely imba" isn't helpful. Give specific things that need to be changed. Balance is ongoing, and crying foul any time something is a bit too strong doesn't help. Not to mention that some heroes are just easier to play, and most people aren't that good. Some heroes that aren't considered that strong are ungodly powerful in the hands of the right players.

 

Please list the item that you think needs to be change or nerf, saying "the game is Item dependent" is not going to help at all.

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Please list the item that you think needs to be change or nerf, saying "the game is Item dependent" is not going to help at all.

I am not saying that any item is OP os is broken (Though there are some that could use some work), what i am saying is a statement/opinion: Late game item build is becoming far more important than players skill (In terms of hero handling), maybe because active/passive bonuses from items produce effects of greater relevance than the original hero's spells or even ultimates, maybe because the hero pool is so small that the need for diversity was addressed by implementing a talent tree system and an increase of T3 items.
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And what does that proves? Experience > Brute force... i think anyone would agree with that, still your argument does not prove that end-game is simply item dependant...

 

That's not what he's trying to prove... He's trying to show item INDEPENDENCE...

 

I am not saying that any item is OP os is broken (Though there are some that could use some work), what i am saying is a statement/opinion: Late game item build is becoming far more important than players skill (In terms of hero handling), maybe because active/passive bonuses from items produce effects of greater relevance than the original hero's spells or even ultimates, maybe because the hero pool is so small that the need for diversity was addressed by implementing a talent tree system and an increase of T3 items.

 

Skill > Item build. But if you're farmed of course you'll have an advantage. That's the whole point of getting items isn't it? You get kills so you can level up or get different items to give you an edge. There would be no point if there were no items. There are better items and better synergy between heroes and better items, but Whales' example along with Eternity's proof shows that Skill > Item Build. The pubs had infinite money but still couldn't win. Please tell me how this isn't valid? Because it is the perfect counter example what you claim that the game is too item dependent late game. If Whales' team had 4 items vs the pub team that had 6 items. It wasn't a clear autowin for the pubs. THEY STILL LOST.

 

Either way if you mean hero handling for AA just standing there and shooting then you have a point and maybe if you're talking about warpshard or impact dial. Other than that your argument is weak at best

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That's not what he's trying to prove... He's trying to show item INDEPENDENCE...

You cannot PROVE anything, if you don't have similar or at least equivalent teams, a party consisting on regular IH players who coordinate by using mumble will most of the times wipe out a team of pubstars. If you want to prove your point of item-independence, pit two teams of regular IH players who have about the same level, both teams coordinated by mumble, replicate the experiment and then you could say that you have proven a point.

 

Skill > Item build. But if you're farmed of course you'll have an advantage. That's the whole point of getting items isn't it? You get kills so you can level up or get different items to give you an edge. There would be no point if there were no items. There are better items and better synergy between heroes and better items, but Whales' example along with Eternity's proof shows that Skill > Item Build. The pubs had infinite money but still couldn't win. Please tell me how this isn't valid? Because it is the perfect counter example what you claim that the game is too item dependent late game. If Whales' team had 4 items vs the pub team that had 6 items. It wasn't a clear autowin for the pubs. THEY STILL LOST.

 

Either way if you mean hero handling for AA just standing there and shooting then you have a point and maybe if you're talking about warpshard or impact dial. Other than that your argument is weak at best

Again, you actually think that a IH PRE with mumble VS a pub is any kind of proof, if you really do, lets end the conversation here.
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You cannot PROVE anything, if you don't have similar or at least equivalent teams, a party consisting on regular IH players who coordinate by using mumble will most of the times wipe out a team of pubstars. If you want to prove your point of item-independence, pit two teams of regular IH players who have about the same level, both teams coordinated by mumble, replicate the experiment and then you could say that you have proven a point.

 

Again, you actually think that a IH PRE with mumble VS a pub is any kind of proof, if you really do, lets end the conversation here.

 

No................................ You were first trying to claim item dependence. Whales' replay is to disprove your theory.................. But I see what your'e saying. If I'm trying to prove item independence I would need more evidence. But at least in the meantime since there is proof of independence you can't claim item dependence. But whatever I'm over it... I'm so confused FML

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No................................ You were first trying to claim item dependence. Whales' replay is to disprove your theory.................. But I see what your'e saying. If I'm trying to prove item independence I would need more evidence. But at least in the meantime since there is proof of independence you can't claim item dependence. But whatever I'm over it... I'm so confused FML

Ok, what i mean is: In my opinion, the game is too item dependent.

You are right, i didin't provide any backup for my claim, as i wasn't trying to prove anything, just bringing my opinion.

 

Now, even if i am not trying to prove that the game is too item dependent i cannot accept Whale's experience as valid (Or as a valid Proof for that matter), simply because the conditions of the teams were too uneven... You cannot compare a Pubteam (No matter if they are pubstars or not) to a Team formed by regular IH players, coordinated by mumble above all. That i cannot accept to be considered as "proof".

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have the IH players play w items coordinated by mumble vs pubstars with items.

have the IH players play w/o items only powered by skill and coordinated by mumble vs pubstars with items.

 

lets see results.

Result = IH team turtling and tower huging until the 30 min mark :D

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I don't have the time atm for a really long post on the matter.

 

But I thought the point of inhouse was that most of the players know what they're doing?

 

And teams that know what they're doing should use every advantage they got.

 

Item superiority = win lanes, get levi first, get more kills and therefore more money, etc. How do you get item superiority? Well, you can:

 

1) Farm well. This doesn't take much skill in pubs, as people rarely deny and a shadow can literally stay in the jungle all game and come out 2 levels ahead of everyone else. In inhouses this is less common but last-hitting skills don't really factor into combat skills that much because some characters are inherently better at it than others, e.g. nova vs brine. Nova will always have better items, lol.

Another example: If you have a micro and are at bot lane with boros, for example, then your opponent can't stay near the creeps because you will throw + bola, which is pretty much an instant kill. This means that bot team can avoid pushing their lane and give you almost no creeps to get gold + xp off of. There is no combat skill involved--micro + boros will always have the upper hand because of their character choice, not because of skill. Please don't tell me you think choosing micro is an example of skill xD. Usually this will result in boros getting free farm and thus can steamroll the opposition as boros naturally scales really well with items and owns people with inferior items.

2) Get kills. This is more skill based than farming.

HOWEVER there is a problem with using this to justify saying the game is not item-based. Someone on your team can feed or even give a few kills, which then makes the fed person have a much easier time fighting people in other lanes. If boros gets to level 6 because of mid and happens to stumble upon a random person in the river, he gets a free kill, no questions asked, and then gets more items.

 

Not saying it's impossible to win with inferior items, but in a lot of cases items > skill.

 

EDIT: Really all I'd like to see are more skillshots/positioning based abilities and less "click to win" abilities.

 

Good example: Cain

 

His Q is a skillshot, his W requires that you keep hitting the same target so your target can retreat giving his partner an advantage, his E can be timed so you can barrage during a barrage, and when using his R you have to always know when to cancel since if your enemy is, say, derpa or cyprus, he can teleport to evade the missiles.

 

Bad Example: Maar's Sap

 

Really, it's just button mashing with crazy damage potential. The rest of maar's abiltities are okay but his sap is just the most boring thing to watch.

 

Another bad example: Brine

 

He couldn't be a more boring hero to play... he has a sprint which makes him faster, a passive ability that makes him a pain to kill, an ult that (when there is detection) is really just a damage steroid, and two single-target-instant-cast abilities. He is somewhat dependent on positioning, but his unkillability makes this less of an issue since with heroes like Rory you can at least flank him to kill him.

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