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strategies without counterplay shouldnt be allowed to thrive.


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i know quistmann loves his "support" rancor, but rancors weakness used to be him being squishy, while his strengths were range, speed, and cloak. now there is no risk in playing rancor, he literally cannot be killed with a tank build. good range, good speed, good damage, good stun. carry a truesight and its gg. if enemy kills you, you are probably missing a brain.

 

the effectiveness of being tanky is also a bit too much right now, to the point where public games are no longer worth playing, every game people spam the low cost/high value tank items and become basically unkillable. shm/lifetech/kuras/phantom menace/contam/spell buffer/korhal. mages cannot burst them down. full dps carries cannot outlast them in fights/or even have the damage efficiency to compete.

inhouse is now full of cancer cheese strats like int toxi with photodeviator, so hes tanky as flob and invis while he takes your entire teams health. fenix/penthos winning the whole game by themselves because they can deal damage with very few items. if a melee carry is first pick in inhouse, its overpowered. there exists many strategies that hard counter melee auto attack heroes.

there should be a clear difference between good play and bad play, but it simply does not take skill to R and cloak yourself with photodeviator and run at the enemy with int toxi. it does not take skill to oneshot half a team with r as fenix. it does not take skill to play tank rancor, buy a ts, and run away the entire game.

 

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Int Toxi + Photo existed for a very long time. Likely only coming into view now because DPS items became more expensive. You didn't mention this before though and seemed fine to use it yourself when necessary. However Toxi is sitting at 63% winrate this season, but it's hard to tell right now if this is INT or DPS Toxi. I believe it is the latter since INT Toxi didn't trend until the 3.1 patch cycle started earlier this month.

Fenix damage scalings were all nerfed in the mid-season patch 3.11. Fenix sits at a 47% winrate this season.

Penthos sits at a 44% winrate this season.

Rancor went from something like 11% Winrate to a more fair 52% Winrate this season. If it keeps going up though, he will be reviewed.

Almost every inhouse won in the last few days consisted of 1 melee aa, 1 ranged aa, 1 support, 1 tank, and 1 spell/mage. There doesn't appear to be a role that is overshadowing the others at this time. The dust has not settled on the mid-season patch, and new heroes will likely trend while popular picks from the previous meta will fall out of favor. Doesn't mean one or the other are broken.

This reads a little more like a rant honestly. I need more details Revision since you only mentioned 3-4 specific hero/item interactions that have 'no counterplay' out of potentially hundreds or thousands item/hero interactions in the game, and ideally provide your thoughts on solutions.

I honestly also cannot comment on pubs. The game cannot be balanced for them.

 

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this isnt about win percentages. this is about playing the game and encountering these strategies over and over.

photodeviator should cost more, and give less damage reduction. or you could rework it to give one second of free cloak no matter what, and if your character deals any sort of damage after that the cloak will be removed.

rancors base movespeed should be down to 3.0 and cloak should give 5%/10%/15%/20% nuke current health scaling down to 5% - int scaling up to 75%

penthos q damage up to 10/20/30/40 per s scaling down to 20/25/30/35%

fenix ult cd to 120s all levels

Edited by Revision
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33 minutes ago, Revision said:

photodeviator should cost more, and give less damage reduction. or you could rework it to give one second of free cloak no matter what, and if your character deals any sort of damage after that the cloak will be removed.

The problem is with Toxi's interaction with Photo. The item itself has not been exploited by any other hero this way and has not demonstrated itself to be a problem with any other hero. If anything, Toxi would be nerfed not Photo in this specific situation, especially in light of his >60% winrate.

 

33 minutes ago, Revision said:

this isnt about win percentages. this is about playing the game and encountering these strategies over and over.

I think the win percentages are a solid point of reference. Keyword being 'a' as they are not the only one used to make assessments. In the context of being mentioned here, it shows that these heroes are on average performing well in competitive but not broken. If one strategy begins to trend, and ultimately becomes indomitable, like how ranged DPS heroes overperformed prior to this patch cycle, it will unfortunately take anywhere from a week to several to truly show in the data.

The counter point to this is that counter strategies to these new "no counterplay" strategies will also take time to reveal themselves but only if the best players take a problem-solving approach to them and see what they can muster on the battlefield.

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it is honestly not hard to see that penthos is broken, sure hes got a 44% winrate, but his top counters are in every single game, toxi and jackson. you were even in a game the other day where the enemy team basically had 5 counters to penthos, and i still had the most damage out and in.Screenshot_328.png

you not only have to see the numbers, but also put thought and reasoning behind it. sure our team was stacked. but i laned vs toxi and jackson my two top counters, as a hero originally designed to be a jungler/ganker. i not only survived the lane, i flourished. killed them both multiple times. like you said earlier i used to do that same thing with toxi, int and photodeviator. im one of the biggest players of both fenix and penthos. it is in fact so imbalanced, that its not even fun for me to play anymore, with dps nerfed there is simply no contest.

Edited by Revision
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