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Changelog v1.348-1.351

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I have altered my stance on the Vergil change. I hold the opinion he is still rather weak and needs buffing but resides in a 'satisfactory' place. My previous post was an EU-esque response to my main being changed.

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yes. Also, why did we change mid ramp? Any reason behind that?

 

 

Mid did seem to have good feel and play to it. Things felt to be good size, shape, and brush positions. There was gank opportunity, but not too much.

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sugg for the ward spots, is it possible tor them to provide increased vision? b/c while I appreciate the effort to create designated spots... instead of searching for them, ill just put my wards down where I want :)

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Idk, does it matter what order changes happen? Do all changes have to be rooted in the pursuit of balance? When I suggested the Vergil remake on these forums (among many other remakes/suggestions), my idea was to change the direction of the hero into something more focused towards being an anti-spellcaster type hero. The goal was to carve out a new niche for him. The numbers proposed for his new kit were all placeholders and were not finetuned for balance. For one reason or another, Adam liked it and adapted it. I'd like to think a little more than some creative liberty is permitted.

 

If the issue is Vergil's balance it will be finetuned, and if the issue is his new kit, let it simmer. These things take time to mature and patch hasn't been out for 2 days ffs.

 

What's sad is, that a lot of issues have already been addressed by Adam in 1.349 in those 2 days but it doesn't matter that people take their time to address anything. Because people will complain about something else when that's out too.

 

 

 

I explained the ideas behind it in the Terrain thread.

 

You guys did good. I mean the amount of changes you made considering there's only 3 devs that I know of. Verg just needs a little tweaking and the devs knew this after the first day of release. The terrain, models, skins, id command and balance on pyro boros etc. were spot on.

 

honestly the community should help you guys test releases out because it's impossible to find every single bug with just the 3 of u before release.

 

Next time we can help you test a release in ih. SCV and Jessika are in a lot of inhouses. Let the inhouse community be your test team/guinea pigs. that way, we can iron out any bugs before releasing it to the public - fuk**n pub ragers.

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I fixed that too

 

Let's make it 6 base movement speed at lvl 0

 

It is funny but having our ability to have fair, enjoyable gameplay in pubs ruined to some degree for long lengths of time is discouraging(yes I know this patch just came out).

 

I know the game exists at all because of devs hard work.

 

So... dido on the few IH test games, to at least catch the big stuff(like virgil ridic move speed) before pub players get thrown to the wolves.

Edited by Gambit

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sugg for the ward spots, is it possible tor them to provide increased vision? b/c while I appreciate the effort to create designated spots... instead of searching for them, ill just put my wards down where I want :)

 

Thought about that. I think it's possible by creating small 'regions' for the ward spots, that when wards are placed within their area they have increased vision by %. Not sure how long it would take though.

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re new verg: ppl complaining about mana drain but even before nerf, new vergil got rekt by penthos, psionic and vorp (heroes using orbs not energy).

 

also an egon's e or cerebro would re-energise team. if his new role is to be anti caster then he's doing his job - caps just need to learn to adapt draft to new heroes.

 

most vergil builds are squishy, so if he gets stunned - he's pretty much dead.

 

and there's also this thing called a tazer - e.g. lz with tazer rekts vergil

 

next time i cap, i will bait a vergil pick, draft to counter it and upload it to youtube

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The problem with that is the loser HP he has, the shorter time that the stuns and other cc lasts. So he is actually harder to kill then his HP would suggest.

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verg's movement speed in my opinion is pretty fast

 

his base movement speed at level 1 is > 4. It was less 3.xx before. this allows him to hit and run very effectively (almost troll-like) causing a sense of despair and frustration in the opponent thus the rage. may need some looking in to.

 

Everything else about him is fine. He leeches energy but does little burst now. i didn't mind him as a burst caster but this new concept of verg as an anti caster is refreshing.

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Too bad vergil is auto banned lol

 

ik, we tried 1 game with verg nerfed and u decide to auto him (game below). I mean apache's 15-0-10 was clearly the reason we won, not my 6-7-6 vergil. Vergil did half the damage than null this game.

 

edit: 15-0 Null carry? this calls for a video: can be seen here

 

We should test him in some more games with different counter drafts/builds. In my opinion, if you're going to nerf vergil ms then his damage output needs buff.

Zera, i've seen you pub stomp with vergil before nerf, if you can carry with vergil as 1st/2nd/3rd pick (so enemy team has a chance to counter draft) then we can justify he's an auto. Right now, he tickles tanks and dies as soon as he's stunned.

 

I was the only person with negative KDA on my team as vergil, I see no reason why he is an auto after that 1 game.

 

btw, how's the new egon, did we auto him too?

 

XvxuWMM.png

Edited by Sharingan

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I agree with Shar in that I don't think Vergil is auto-material just yet. I don't think this trigger-happy approach to auto banning is conducive of reaching well informed balancing. The heroes need to be experienced in different situations, and like Shar said the new Vergil must be played and counter played differently.

 

The damage of Q and R isn't that high to justify an auto and unless you are facing a high energy opponent. I actually think the energy damage scaling of both skills may have to be increased back to 4 or 5% since it is 'current' energy rather than max energy but more time is needed for that assessment.

 

If the energy leech of Q is still high, especially during earlier levels, it can be reduced slightly to match the energy leech of R (15% or less).

 

His heroic passive gives him a maximum of 25% timescale (additively), and that's ONLY if his health is 10% or below. Previously his maximum timescale was 20% instantly when health drops below 30%.

 

If Vergil's time bonus from heroic is high, it isn't really because of the rework because the timescale bonus was always there. If you think it is high now basically, then you should've thought it was high then. Maybe the combination of haste, yamato and his heroic together is strong, but haste on its own has always been strong. At least for the heroic, you pay for it with life and yamato you pay for it with money.

 

Regarding his MS, I think it is troll-like in the early game, and very funny to look at it coming out of the pool while we all drag behind him.

 

If Vergil is meant to be very fast like he is now, then maybe make him more fragile by reducing base STR and STR gain.

 

Alternatively, reduce his base MS to 3.8 and compensate him with a scaling MS buff on E that lasts for the same duration as the evasion (so only a few short seconds).

 

Re: Egon

 

Still too strong probably.

 

Haven't seen Tass in action though.

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Lol I was actually sure shar was trolling me in game with what he was saying, but I see he's being pretty serious so lets talk about few facts

 

Regarding this specific game(since this is all you talk about): Sure apache played a good null but thats not the main reason you won, I can't believe that you will just watch someones score and based on that say which hero is op and which isn't. Thats very sad tbh. Second thing, while our bottom lane got destroyed since it was 1v2, and with that them getting more map control, money, etc etc vergil(which you actually didn't play well, just imagine putting someone like apache on him) held pretty good vs warfield and drake and they were always out of energy with no way to actually push the tower since they can be always easy ganked. I won't even talk about his new W here. In teamfights everyone on your team was now already so fed so it was easy, but adding in the fact that there was a vergil in middle of us dealing decent dmg(with normal build this would be so ridic) everyone losing energy, all skills going on forever cd and if you want to attack him, well thers 100% evasion. I don't honestly see any point anymore explaing you basics of this game, so I'll just weitte what I think about vergil.

 

1)Base mov speed is a complete joke, if I got it right its a bug, so please fix it.

2)Passive time scale just won't work no mather how much you nerf it(untill it becomes useless). Why? Destroyer nailed it with what he said. CC lasts much less on him. He's also now much more slippery because instead of gaining bonus time when he is bellow 30% hp as it used to be, now its for every 10% lost and this is more buffs to his early game. Furthermore, it can be abused(I tryed this, it works) so that you tank towers, or any way you feel like losing hp, just so you get more cdr, in this case time. With right build late game your ult should have around 15 sec cd.

 

Q, mana drain is just a joke and there is no way to balance it. Why? Atm even tho it maybe takes more time in late game drain all energy, early game its just OP. As I heard it drained around 40 and considering Q has 3 stacks ad very small cd it drains all energy very fast. One more big thing about ths is the fact thers almost no way to dodge vergils Q, PLUS he has no risk of using it cuz it has ridicilous cast range. Honestly, just in general I don't like energy leech at all, but it has nothing to do with what I wrote here, its all facts.

 

W This alone when looked at seems it can be fine, but its just not. What happens in teamfights is basicly that 2-3 heroes are limited to use 1 ability once in like 40 seconds or more.

E- Continuing from W, now that nobody can use any abilitys you have 100% evasion and just stand in middle of everyone without any way of.actually taking dmg fo like 3 seconds. This was OP even before the nerf, now its just ridicilous. One more thing about it, if I understood right, this rework is supposed to make vergil in anti-casrer/int hero right? So how exactly does evasion fit in that? I just seem confused a bit.

 

R- Same as Q it just drains too much energy considering its hard to dodge it.

 

Conclusion- Just bring the old vergil back and nerf his evasion a bit, he was pretty fine. If you rly want rework him, I'd suggest that you think of something complete different, this just won't work and it will make 1 problem after another with every change.

Edited by ZERATUL

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1)Base mov speed is a complete joke, if I got it right its a bug, so please fix it.

2)Passive time scale just won't work no mather how much you nerf it(untill it becomes useless). Why? Destroyer nailed it with what he said. CC lasts much less on him. He's also now much more slippery because instead of gaining bonus time when he is bellow 30% hp as it used to be, now its for every 10% lost and this is more buffs to his early game. Furthermore, it can be abused(I tryed this, it works) so that you tank towers, or any way you feel like losing hp, just so you get more cdr, in this case time. With right build late game your ult should have around 15 sec cd.

 

Q, mana drain is just a joke and there is no way to balance it. Why? Atm even tho it maybe takes more time in late game drain all energy, early game its just OP. As I heard it drained around 40 and considering Q has 3 stacks ad very small cd it drains all energy very fast. One more big thing about ths is the fact thers almost no way to dodge vergils Q, PLUS he has no risk of using it cuz it has ridicilous cast range. Honestly, just in general I don't like energy leech at all, but it has nothing to do with what I wrote here, its all facts.

 

W This alone when looked at seems it can be fine, but its just not. What happens in teamfights is basicly that 2-3 heroes are limited to use 1 ability once in like 40 seconds or more.

E- Continuing from W, not that nobody can use any abilitys you have 100% evasion and just stand in middle of everyone without any way of.actually taking dmg fo like 3 seconds. This was OP even before the nerf, now its just ridicilous. One more thing about it, if I understood right, this rework is supposed to make vergil in anti-casrer/int hero right? So how exactly does evasion fit in that? I just seem confused a bit.

 

R- Same as Q it just drains too much energy considering its hard to dodge it.

 

Conclusion- Just bring the old vergil back and nerf his evasion a bit, he was pretty fine. If you rly want rework him, I'd suggest that you think of something cometely different, this just won't work and it will make 1 problem after another with every change.

 

1) Yes.

 

2) He's always had 20% timescale from his heroic give or take. By your logic, it should've been abusable before too. Where were the complaints then?

 

3) Q; no such thing as "no way to balance it". This isn't way of thinking isn't constructive.

W; Don't get hit. Counter with AA, passives, and items.

E - Blinking and be difficult to target is good in any assassin's kit. I don't see how it wouldn't work in this rework.

R - Hard to dodge? You can see it coming from a mile away. The energy leech being too high or too low is always subject to balancing. It's not an argument against the concept.

 

Conclusion - It's Adam's call but I doubt old Vergil is coming back. Nobody is going to get a rework right from the beginning. It took time and lots of fine-tuning to get the old Vergil to where he was. New Vergil just needs more time (pun intended). Cow was also "pretty fine" btw before the rework, doesn't mean we should backtrack on him.

 

I think aside from the MS issue, more games should be put into the new Vergil, and more importantly he shouldn't be played or perceived as the old Vergil.

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just played 3 or 4 pubs on NA with tass, he is in good place now in my opinion.He needs like 3 times as long to get there but if he gets there, still rekk face.

 

 

I'm glad you think so, since you know your shap when it comes to Tass. He definitely still rekk face, increasing the risk to match his reward is more than enough.

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No? It was only when you were bellow 30% hp, plus the rest of things stay about him being more slippery and less cc time even if not bellow 30% hp.

 

Ok then tell me the way of balancing his Q

 

Don't get hit? I think people consider me a decent player and I have no idea of how to dodge vergils Q, maybe I'm just bad. Altho I like to learn, so I would be happy if you are willing to tell me how(I'm not being sarcastic or bm, you said it can be dodged easy, and I don't think so I hope you have something that covers that argument).

 

R- A mile away? Yamato-blink in enemy team-ult

 

 

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No? It was only when you were bellow 30% hp, plus the rest of things stay about him being more slippery and less cc time even if not bellow 30% hp.

 

Ok then tell me the way of balancing his Q

 

Don't get hit? I think people consider me a decent player and I have no idea of how to dodge vergils Q, maybe I'm just bad. Altho I like to learn, so I would be happy if you are willing to tell me how(I'm not being sarcastic or bm, you said it can be dodged easy, and I don't think so I hope you have something that covers that argument).

 

R- A mile away? Yamato-blink in enemy team-ult

 

Q

 

You either reduce the energy leech too less than or equal to R (10% or 15%). Or you keep the current numbers the same and you reduce the cast range slightly and increase cool down between charges. Increasing cast time slightly (i.e. the delay before the AoE effect hits) is also a viable alternative.

 

I also didn't say Q was easy to dodge, I said R is easy to dodge or rather easy to avoid if it isn't done from point blank range. You can usually tell when a Vergil is coming in for the ult because a Vergil normally plays keep away, except when ult is up.

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mhm a newbie on values and stuff but might it be possible to let vergil scale up from lategame somehow? cause his early game is wayyyy to strong right now. Maybe something like - leech scales not of target but of selfattrib.Energy maybe? So he has to decide wheter he want more damage throu int or more leech throu energy. That way his earlygame is nerved and his lategame still has potential.

 

PS: nerv egons W and R in values a bit? :D

or implement the new desing you suggested, it was sooo nice!

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well that was was the only ih game we played with vergil then he was instantly autod - just couldn't see the justification there.

need more games to test counters to him. i pub with verg and got rekt by micro in lane with tazer but im nub.

 

i agree with jess, if he's base movement speed is buffed then even with timescale, he wont be insanely fast - will need buff somewhere else tho.

 

This reworked verg is refreshing, just needs some time to test and tweak. Won't be able to do this if its just autod after 1 game. The game above is the only ih data we got to go on and in my opinion, verg got carried hard - missed so many Qs, did half the damage as null and the only one on team with negative kda =).

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