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Adamantium

Changelog v1.334-v1.338

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I snuck that in since I nerfed the base damage and it feels like a pretty hard nerf. We will see. You also say it is a non ult skill, but on artanis only his passive and W deal damage (besides the OP on hit items). That's also from a fully charged W which you probably won't hit unless we have a case of wombo combo or scrub enemies.

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I disagree. It's one thing to be punished poorly for bad plays, and another to lose all 3 towers or your whole base after one mistake. Or being able to tower dive with impunity in the first 15 minutes. Towers are also there to defend you defending it defending the base.

 

Towers in other games don't deal as much damage as AoS but towers in the games have other tools, like fortification, insane BD resistance/regeneration, armor auras for allies, and stuff like buyback really change the defensive strategies.

 

In AoS:

 

Towers melt, to everyone, not just the pusher class because of bonus damage heroes do to them.

There is no buyback.

There is no universal way to teleport to towers quickly to defend them.

Tower resistance is relatively average or low, and BD protection does not recover lost health.

No tower bonuses, auras, fortification.

 

Towers IMO need the scaling heroic damage to balance things out. If anything, you have to play smarter now than before.

 

At worst, the scaling damage could be fine-tuned to 1/1.5/2 for the T1/T2/T3 towers, but I would hesitate to jump the gun on that so soon and just wait and see some new meta possibly evolve out of this. Change is good.

Towers in Aos are just like they are in LOL except they do true damage and attack faster then league towers. League also has all of those reasons you pointed out, the only difference I can think of is that league towers don't lose backdoor protection with a set amount of heroes. And there is a way to teleport to towers, its under the utility tree, and I'm sure you take it every time you play a caster.

 

ALSO, towers melting HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW MUCH DAMAGE THEY DO. That has to do with resistances and HP. Make it so they don't lose backdoor protection to just heroes. BOOM. 1 mistake not costing you the game. EZ

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I snuck that in since I nerfed the base damage and it feels like a pretty hard nerf. We will see. You also say it is a non ult skill, but on artanis only his passive and W deal damage (besides the OP on hit items). That's also from a fully charged W which you probably won't hit unless we have a case of wombo combo or scrub enemies.

 

That's understandable, it's just that a fully charged W (2.5s of game time) is actually really fast. I'm not saying it is abusable, but that high of an INT scaling is rarely allocated to anyone that actually is intended to build INT. Cyp for example, has 40% INT scaling and that's a single target. Drake has 100% INT scaling on his IIRC but Drake will suffer for building pure INT.

 

Artanis (AGI) revels in INT burst builds it seems, and this could push him over the edge late game.

 

I would be more in favor of a fixed INT scaling across all levels that is neither too high or too low, that does not scale with time spent in the bubble. Since INT scaling in and of itself scales anyway. Something like Max Base damage 160/ 220/ 280/ 340 + (60 or 70% INT).

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Towers in Aos are just like they are in LOL except they do true damage and attack faster then league towers. League also has all of those reasons you pointed out, the only difference I can think of is that league towers don't lose backdoor protection with a set amount of heroes. And there is a way to teleport to towers, its under the utility tree, and I'm sure you take it every time you play a caster.

 

ALSO, towers melting HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW MUCH DAMAGE THEY DO. That has to do with resistances and HP. Make it so they don't lose backdoor protection to just heroes. BOOM. 1 mistake not costing you the game. EZ

 

Why are you shouting?

 

You're right, towers shouldn't lose BD protection to just heroes. I think a combination of that change, along with a slight reduction to the tower hero bonus damage, and perhaps a *cough* universal transport *cough* could do the trick.

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That's understandable, it's just that a fully charged W (2.5s of game time) is actually really fast. I'm not saying it is abusable, but that high of an INT scaling is rarely allocated to anyone that actually is intended to build INT. Cyp for example, has 40% INT scaling and that's a single target. Drake has 100% INT scaling on his IIRC but Drake will suffer for building pure INT.

 

Artanis (AGI) revels in INT burst builds it seems, and this could push him over the edge late game.

 

I would be more in favor of a fixed INT scaling across all levels that is neither too high or too low, that does not scale with time spent in the bubble. Since INT scaling in and of itself scales anyway. Something like Max Base damage 160/ 220/ 280/ 340 + (60 or 70% INT).

 

Cyp without using pillars is 40%. With pillars it' more like 120% I think? I don't remember. But cyprus with maxed build can burst like 6000 damage soooooo.

 

If tower's didn't lose backdoor resist from 3+ heroes I think pushing would be a heck of a lot harder. I didn't notice much of a difference in game time from this change but I feel like that change would increase game time.

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Cyp without using pillars is 40%. With pillars it' more like 120% I think? I don't remember. But cyprus with maxed build can burst like 6000 damage soooooo.

 

It's difficult to compare skills in a vacuum but let's look at the whole shebang if you like.

 

With 500 INT, Cyp's whole combo (QWR) deals shap ton of damage (it's at least 2000-2500 damage. This number comes from 800+40% INT + [70+(7.5% INT)*6] which is 1000 + 645) to a single target. The damage from W then adds another 400 or so damage. The whole thing costs 400 mana and is on 80s cooldown (not counting any extra CDR here or there just basics).

 

With 500 INT, Artanis can deal at least 1000 Area of effect damage (so 5 heroes nearby = 5000 damage total) at the cost of 125 mana on 20s cooldown. In the time in takes Cyp to redeal his obscene damage, Artanis could loosely deal his AoE damage about 4 times for only 100 extra mana than Cyp.

 

If you want to calculate the DPS of it, Artanis is dealing more spell damage per second to more people than Cyprus. Again this is just a comparison of W to Cyp's whole combo QWR without factoring reductions, amps, or any of Artanis's other abilities.

 

There is also more risk associated with Cyp dealing his damage as he is not invulnerable for any period of time before he deals it.

Edited by Jessika

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Just for arguments sake, you also didn't take into account that Cyp QW is dealing that 400 per hero since it's also aoe. And if you haven't tried it already, try using a fully built cyprus doing a full combo on an obelisk. I think the last time I did that, the obelisk went from 10K HP to around 6.5k HP or so. And that's with 50% resist, which would mean 7k actual damage lol. Maybe the pillars glitched or something but I've 100-0 two people at the same time with cyprus combo when they were standing next to each other.

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400x5 is 2000 + 1645 which brings the total damage dealt to 3645 for 400 mana at 80s cd, about 40% of which is to a single target only.

 

I'm not saying that Cyp isn't dealing obscene damage or that dealing obscene damage is innately bad by the way. I'm just saying that even with his full combo (not factoring in reductions or amplifications), he still does not deal anywhere near what Artanis can deal per point of energy and per second.

 

4 W's from 500 INT Artanis in the span of 80s cost 500 mana and can deal over a whopping 20000 damage to 5 nearby heroes theoretically speaking. In that timeframe and with relatively that amount of energy, Cyp candeal 3645 for 400 mana and only through the combination of his entire spell kit (as opposed to 1 ability).

 

It's hard to compare skills in a vacuum as I said, but you don't need to I feel to see that 150% INT scaling AoE spell damage on a (for all intents and purposes) INT hero is practically begging to be abused late game. Maybe if it cost 250-300 energy and had a 80s cooldown it would be permissible. But it doesn't, it costs 125 and has a 20s cooldown.

 

We'll see how this plays out in practice, because theorycrafting isn't without its flaws/limits.

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No, it isn't.

 

We are discussing total maximum potential damage dealt to the all enemies in the hypothetical situation that all 5 of them are affected by a spell (excluding reductions and amplifications), and measuring said damage against the energy and time cost required to deliver it. I was quite thorough with my wording, so perhaps it was difficult for you to understand (or you're just being an ass). Many games/MOBAs even display the total damage output your hero dealt to the enemy through out the game at the end during the score screen. It's a way of gauging a hero/player's effectiveness in combat.

 

I won't bother answering your most likely facetious question though, not because I can't but rather because Toxi's stacking mechanism is confusing and ain't nobody got time for that. But I'll give a better example, one from the hero Toxi was 'inspired' by - DotA's Venomancer.

 

Venomancer's Poison Nova ult when fully geared with aghs can deal up to 1870 spell damage to a single enemy hero before reductions, if he manages to catch 5 heroes in his ult (which happens in that game relatively frequently), he will potentially deal 9350 spell damage to the enemy team before reductions/amplifications.

 

The same principle carries over into AoS. Artanis with 500 INT and before reductions/amplifications can potentially deal more than 5000 total spell damage to the enemy hero team. Every 20s. For 125 energy. Hypothetically speaking of course.

 

If you actually think this measure of damage output in a teamfight game (which was what my argument was built on) is retarded, then you honestly don't know your shap.

Edited by Jessika

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I hate to say it but pretty sure toxi ult and vorpal int build are the highest damaging abilities in the game. Both (especially toxi) can kill an entire team and he can lockbox himself in the middle of it so he isn't on the map(that's dumb ass shap btw). I have been seeing it a bunch lately with toxi. Artanis is fine with the small buff scaling since his base was cut by 100 not including the E change ESPECIALLY with all the nerfs he took. In the IH's he played (fully int build) he has had neither most damage in or damage out in the game. Lets see how it goes before crying about it.... I am glad artanis received some late game help since his early to early mid is not that great anymore.

 

Plus for arguments sake cyp or kura or whoever else doesn't have to be in the middle o the team to do damage to 5 hero(they are 6 units off kiting and bursting you down). Artanis is very easily countered besides the bubble I have yet to see it a problem. Most artanis now have been going negative or breaking even(the same people who played it before) The hero really thrived early and mid game and the have pretty much taken that away.

Edited by BlackXioN

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Toxi's ult is exactly that - It's an ult. It also has very obvious drawbacks like that it deals non-lethal damage. Or that it deals it the damage over time. Or that It costs 450 energy and has 100 second cooldown.

 

Artanis's W is on a 20s cooldown and costs 125 energy. It's one thing to give a hero help, and another to make them easy to abuse. 150% INT scaling is huge and it's asking for it. 125% was huge too actually, but the base damage was the bigger problem so everyone who complained ignored.

 

Have the INT scaling for W fixed at 60 or 70% (the median of sorts between 35 and 150 INT scaling) and call it a day IMO.

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And make the hero deal literally no damage...the W is its main(only really) damage ability. Your suggesting to cut damage in half on a hero who already got nerfed to the ground. No one is complaining about artanis anymore, except you, and most people say its a shap pick now. I think leaving it how it is and at least giving it time to see if its broke, seems like its not, before crying and trying to nerf it again.

Edited by BlackXioN

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And make the hero deal literally no damage...the W is its main(only really) damage ability.

 

I'm not against him buffing his other damage sources, but no single one ability, especially a non-ult, should be dealing this level of damage.

 

Notice how my main gripes with Artanis from the beginning were not about his damage output, they are mainly focused on his E being ranged (I was suggesting that a hero like him remain 100% melee in damage dealing) and also about giving him free spell pen when he is an agility hero. I also whined a bit about how his W should make him vulnerable to true damage and make him targetable at least. These were my main concerns. I never want to nerf the rewards so hard so much as I wanted to increase the risks.

 

Granted, W was dealing a hugely unnecessary amount of damage early game, but now it will potentially deal a huge amount of damage late game for a measly 125 energy. Cyprus's fart costs more energy than that.

Edited by Jessika

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Again, I would let this play out. You, again, are the only one complaining about the hero.

 

Not complaining. Discussing. Or is that what differences in opinion here are seen as. Complaining, or 'retarded'. Psh.

Edited by Jessika

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Shoot I didn't mean to start all this. I just wanna see how it plays out. How it feels in game.

 

Adam alienating the community one member at a time. Started with Skydie, now Jessika.

 

:D

 

Also one of those games I enjoyed pulling people into the towers as boros for free kills :D

 

Tower buff working as intended :)

Edited by Jaysi

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I agree. I watched someone take 4 tower shots to the face while they stayed in melee range like a man. Then they panicked and tried to run. They didn't make it out alive.

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I completely agree with everything that Destroyer said about how the new patch makes the game more boring. But in the end, why does it matter? Seems to me that Jessika already made up her mind about the tower being buffed is justified. Isn't this how the AOS development always has been? Yes, in IH the game landscape is completely fine with the new change, and you "IHers" can criticize pub player skills all you want. But keep in mind they are the players thats going to keep a custom game alive. If you alienate them, soon enough, all you really going to have is the same 20-30 players who circlejerk to each other about how skilled they are at a game that's pretty much patched to their needs.

 

In pubs, not every single team will have a a balanced team with tanks, dps, casters, suppprt. In fact, I've seen so many pub games where due to composition of different teams, one team was ahead by 10+ kills and 2-3 towers but ends up losing after like 1 hour because t3 towers help so much - because the amount of damage they do and how close each t3 are to each other compare to t1 and t2, you can't even split push. Unlike before, now you really need one hero to defend one lane against 2-3 heroes at t3.

Edited by PsychoCrushER

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