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DutchOvenPro

Possible Adjustment to Kill Bounty???

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So I mentioned this on mumble the other day, and my argument was that the max/min value of kills seems to be to far apart. Before I continue, I'm basing this off of feel, and have 0 evidence to backup my claim other than my experience playing the game.

 

Prior to the change it used to be that if your team snowballed you almost always ended up winning. Now it feels that if your team falls behind early, but manages to farm decent cs, and have a better late game comp you have a better chance to win than the team that has outplayed you all the way to mid game. This to me seems unbalanced. I would like to see early team play rewarded, and one way i think we can do that is by slightly lowering the max bounty, and increasing the minimum bounty for feeders.

 

Thoughts???

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I would agree that more games are lost by a team that spent the entire first half dominating than there used to be. Whether this is attributed to the winning team having a better late game comp, the bounty that the team gains from successful players, or towers being weaker so one team wipe means you can break their base and sack artifact, I don't know.

 

It's nice to know that, if we win a team fight, we can still win. But it sucks that if you win all game, and then you lose one team fight that you lose the game. Maybe that's just a part of your team synergy though, if you're dicking the dog too much and don't continue to push the other team in smart ways and try to finish the game before a late game comp comes online, you should lose.

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Not sure about the state of the game at this exact moment but when i was last playing people didnt really push their advantage enough. literally the last game i played we stomped early game then some of the supposedly "best" players decided not to listen to my calls of lets push and win and wanted to mock and taunt the enemies by killing them more...

 

15 mins later after rambo shenanigans we lost and i kinda rage quit mumble and playing another inh...

 

i blame people not using their advantage to starve the enemy and making stupid decisions

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Not sure about the state of the game at this exact moment but when i was last playing people didnt really push their advantage enough. literally the last game i played we stomped early game then some of the supposedly "best" players decided not to listen to my calls of lets push and win and wanted to mock and taunt the enemies by killing them more...

 

15 mins later after rambo shenanigans we lost and i kinda rage quit mumble and playing another inh...

 

i blame people not using their advantage to starve the enemy and making stupid decisions

 

And maybe long drafts have to do with this. Why hurry up and win the game when it just means we have to pick teams and draft again and less playing time? Tourney games on the other hand are much different because the win is more important than usual and teams do typically push their advantage. That could just be the quality of player from a tourney team to the average in house now though.

 

Maybe it's mindsets to a point as well. The winning team feels more confident because they are ahead and do plays they typically wouldn't do, the losing team feels more desparate and will bum rush your artifact the first chance they get. There's plenty of games where I've been losing and then we team wipe and I'm like push the damn artifact and win before they respawn because this is our only shot.

Edited by Jaysi

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In regards to the OP.

 

I think the primary thing here is Artefact and Tower life levels and backdoor resists.

 

There are 3-4 examples i can think of off hand, where my team was winning ALL game. Massively ahead in kills and towers.

Then ONE team whipe, poorly done.

 

Other team comes back and pushes T2, T3 and Artefact in 1 min.

 

Often this can be done while leaving all other T2 and T3's up.

 

I think after 50-55 Min into the game. Really doesnt matter what happened BEFORE. At this point, its 1 team whipe and game is over... REGARDLESS of how many towers have been taken on either side OR how many kills one team is ahead.

 

An extreme example is the game i obs where 1 team in 10-15 min into the game lost all T1, T2, and several T3 towers. And Turtled almost forever. They did not kill a single T1 all game. After about 55 min. The turtling team whiped the aggressive team. They then pushed T1, T2, T3 and Artifact down the middle for the win.

 

IMO This was a little unfair. I feel the other team should at least have to push several lanes. I.e. 2 T1 towers must be dead else there is some resistance on T2 towers. Same for T3. You shouldnt be able to go kill the artefact without at least 2 T3's down.

 

What I am saying is instead of T1, T2, T3 artefact going down with other lanes still having T1,T2,T3's up. You should have to kill 2 lanes mostly Before u can win the game. This will result in the offensively winning team having to be completely whiped probably once late game for the other team to comeback.. but probably not win outright. Meaning 40 min early game, vs 1 whipe late game evens out the odds for who will win. As opposed to having the winnning team lose with 1 whipe, id prefer 2. Especially if they are massively ahead in towers.

 

I can recall playing a Game where i went 7-1-13 with erekul. I lost the game on my one death. The other team had not taken more than 2 T1's all game.

 

I feel our team should be punished for dying at that point... like losing T2 and T3 in both lanes, but there was no recovery time. Seemed the entire advantage acquired all game was nullified by the late game Tower Weakness.

 

And yes im calling it tower weakness as opposed to a fed hero who can kill towers. Because I have seen multiple games end with few fed heroes, who can push as 5 and kill any tower quickly.

 

It is a slight problem right now, and I think a small buff to towers, ESPECIALLY if MOST of the towers in the game are still alive on your side, is necessary to avoid one team turtling all game for 1 team whipe.

 

BTW if i am losing the game... I tell my team this... "Turtle guys, all we have to do is whipe them once after 55 min, and we win the whole game". And I have won games I should not have, through this method.

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I would like to see the Artifact gain more health dmg and resist that decreases with each T3 tower that falls. So you can push one lane and possibally win but it would be extremely difficult without having at least 2 T3 down.

 

so maybe

 

With all T3 up

- Artifact is invulnerable, deals massive dmg, and maybe shoots three targets at a time with aoe dmg.

 

With 1 T3 down

-Artifact can start taking dmg but is still has massive hp, deals massive dmg and shoots 2 targets at a time with aoe dmg.

 

With 2 T3 down

-Artifact Loses a large chunk of resist and or overall health, deals good dmg and only shoots one target at a time.

 

With all T3 down

-Artifact loses all remaining resist and has maybe 1/3 to 1/4 as much health as it originally did, deals little dmg to maybe losing its attack.

 

In addition to this maybe the Artifact doesn't lose its attack once shields are gone but only after all T3 are down.

 

This would also help the game where all T3 are down but a team turtles for 20-30 min to come back and win. Imho once all lanes are down that team should have little to no chance of winning the game at that point

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Honestly I think you are all overlooking a huge problem here. If you have such an advantage that you have all T1 and T2 towers before the enemy team, you have an absolutely MASSIVE advantage in both gold and map pressure. If you're unable to close out a game where you're that far ahead before the other team can end the game in one push, it's very clearly your fault and you deserve to lose that game. A lot of the time I see people just running around the map without any plan and not working together. When teams follow a shotcaller, (what Sphyx refers to as a general, and said that only Whale and I really act as) most games where we get a decent lead early on snowball out of control pretty fast and games where we're behind can be turned around via vision control, picks, and map transitions. Most people just don't do that.

 

I think it's one thing to argue that it's impossible to do something like that in a given scenario, but from what I've seen (and I admit maybe there just aren't very high quality inhouses any more) people just don't play the game well anymore which it what I attribute that to.

Edited by Aellectris

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Honestly I think you are all overlooking a huge problem here. If you have such an advantage that you have all T1 and T2 towers before the enemy team, you have an absolutely MASSIVE advantage in both gold and map pressure. If you're unable to close out a game where you're that far ahead before the other team can end the game in one push, it's very clearly your fault and you deserve to lose that game. A lot of the time I see people just running around the map without any plan and not working together. When teams follow a shotcaller, (what Sphyx refers to as a general, and said that only Whale and I really act as) most games where we get a decent lead early on snowball out of control pretty fast and games where we're behind can be turned around via vision control, picks, and map transitions. Most people just don't do that.

 

I think it's one thing to argue that it's impossible to do something like that in a given scenario, but from what I've seen (and I admit maybe there just aren't very high quality inhouses any more) people just don't play the game well anymore which it what I attribute that to.

 

This isn't the main problem they are trying to fix. Everyone hates how a game can end in 1 push with T1 towers up or if the T3 is down you can just go backdoor the artifact with the enemies wave all the way in your base. Quistman wants to fix that, being massively ahead and not winning is just a small part of his post.

Edited by Dresden

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Well it has been a problem on my mind long time ago when my drafted team made enemy team turtle but they had better end game composition and back then you had heroes that could basically wipe out the creeps and defend forever.

The people and impatient and think push push push then we will win, it was useless because they could 1 shot wipe any wave then get strong enough to crush us. No ground to fight outside their base. But still the team just did a push and allowed them to farm up and then own us.

the tactic I had in mind when enemy team is behind and starts to turtle is to denay them any farm at all. Oh and I mean it. 3 waves fighting in the middle, no one is even getting close to any t2, keep in mind that enemy can not go out of their t3 or else it equals a teamwipe. Lanes are freezed - no gold for enemy & no experience. When lane freeze is secured, put up wards and crush enemy when they want to leave base. When neutrals spawn kill them, starting from thors and tank close to enemy base then proceed to kill all others on the map. It requires patience and like a second laning phase.

When I was turtling as a team I was praying to god for them to destroy racks when we had to turle - that assures us constant flow of creeps to our t3, where we can eaisly defend. On top of that extra exp and gold from super mobs! If they can not finish us then it is the end for them. They would be better off without killing racks at all.

 

About winning early game, mid game and losing late game. There are some compositions, speaking as the capt drafter, that base their strenght on the laning and midgame strenght but are shap end game. They will always win laning phase because their laning phase is just op. Good start but on the other hand weak end game, that is the case and always has been.

 

In my opinion what is unbalanced is people mentality to push and always push like braindead beholders, no team awarness when to switch tactic but it might be 'weak' capt position and lack of knowledge how to lead a team that contributes to the lack of effective usage and changes of tactic during the game.

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Pls no, we had problems in the past with turtling at the artifact lasting forever. I like Quistmans idea, it's pretty close to what destroyer and I came up with a while ago.

Edited by Dresden

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Not how hard it would be to code in, but I also like Quistmann's idea.

 

I dont mind what the Artefact targets. If that is hard to code, just more resists until several T3's are down, an easier fix is also acceptable to me.

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Not how hard it would be to code in, but I also like Quistmann's idea.

 

I dont mind what the Artefact targets. If that is hard to code, just more resists until several T3's are down, an easier fix is also acceptable to me.

 

like in smite

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I feel like pushing early is a mistake some times, it just allows the other team to farm like hell especially if they have 1+ wave clear hero. Maybe per tower killed the lane creeps become less value for the opposing team. For instance you kill team 1 tower creeps pushing that lane from team 2 are worth 10% less. Creep bounty amount would only be effected in that lane.

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Testing an artifact buff, not a bounty change yet.

 

In the few games that i have played with the tower buff i found it very satisfying. In the game that my team won we had to push down 2 T3 and wipe their team to win and in the game my team lost they had to push down all 3 T3. In both cases it very much felt like the team that was supposed to win won.

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In the few games that i have played with the tower buff i found it very satisfying. In the game that my team won we had to push down 2 T3 and wipe their team to win and in the game my team lost they had to push down all 3 T3. In both cases it very much felt like the team that was supposed to win won.

 

Good

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I feel like pushing early is a mistake some times, it just allows the other team to farm like hell especially if they have 1+ wave clear hero. Maybe per tower killed the lane creeps become less value for the opposing team. For instance you kill team 1 tower creeps pushing that lane from team 2 are worth 10% less. Creep bounty amount would only be effected in that lane.

 

I had another idea of having the supressors just reduce the damage enemy heroes do to creep. So waves won't push but it becomes more difficult for enemy heroes to kill creep. Essentially it's the same as now but no uultras/archons and the resistance doesn't affect enemy creep damage, only enemy hero damage, hence no pushing. Although the bounty idea would work as well. It might feel more frustrating than my idea though... since we are already used to creeps with high resists.

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