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HarryHootie

Shadow is Underpowered now.

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A small group of players, playing IH and banning it. It's foolish IMO, shadow has been pretty much the same since V3 and we have all lived though it and then all of a sudden hes banned.. Split push means you are not minding the map correctly. Gurnty can easily split push with river runner, yet hes not banned. Also there is tower protection now anyways, which means if there isn't another allie there you do like no damage.

well they were also the best group of players

plus you can always be on mumble if u have any thought which u wanna balance with community

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Just got done playing shadow some more, it's not bad, but stepping strikes should do be changed to the following....

 

Lvl1 .35 + 4% move speed

Lvl2 .45 + 6% move speed

lvl3 .55 + 7.5% move speed

lvl 4 .65 + 8.5% move speed

 

This means the more damage he does and the faster he moves, the less stepping strikes procs balancing out his skills in the low end.

Edited by zazzn

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Shadow has the potential to do a lot of damage and his utility was nerfed. The reason shadow was an assassin was because he could stick to his targets quite easily due to his E and W. His only challenge in a 1v1 was old Zeratul. Your thoughts of balance are quite skewed. Like Doom said his problem is he cant stick to his targets anymore. He has damage he just cant deal it and his utility was nerfed along with his main sticking ability. Shadows kit is completely fine, but when a key mechanic is nerfed really hard without any compensation it throws the viability of the hero away. I believe stepping strikes was nerfed first, which made him get picked for team fight comps because his vortex could set up great combos. Then his vortex got nerfed which made him just be a split push hero again. The way Riot balances is they nerf OP champions then after the nerf they closely examine how much the champion was affected, which determines if they will give buffs to offset heavy nerfs. An example would be Leblancs silence being removed (huge nerf), so they gave her smaller buffs in different areas. AoS hasn't done that. At least not when I played. Shadows gets pushed into certain roles because of nerfs thrown at him and no one is ever satisfied with the results. Shadow is an iconic hero of AoS. Changing him to Xel would most likely cause more anger than anything.

 

And just because a skill has utility to it doesn't mean it needs to be on a support. Shadows W helps him set up ganks, escape, chase and initiate fights. That is much more than a movement speed boost/slow. The ability has always been a key skill for shadow.

I have to disagree with shade not being able to stick to people. He has 4 abilities that help him chase in combat, and his passive movespeed can help him in initially getting close. Add in a stun knife and shade can get in quite a few autos along with his Q. The problem is that he doesn't deal much burst outside of Q plus the stun knife autos, which aren't enough to outright kill someone unless you are quite fed. He is mostly dps, but he is squishy and melee. Think about balrog. Balrog has very little gap closing, all he has is Q, yet because he has a good amount of burst with Q, autos, then R, this gap losing problem isn't a problem. He won't die after the jump because of tankiness either. Shade has amazing gapclosing, but his damage is so low he can't assassinate except when fed.

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I have to disagree with shade not being able to stick to people. He has 4 abilities that help him chase in combat, and his passive movespeed can help him in initially getting close. Add in a stun knife and shade can get in quite a few autos along with his Q. The problem is that he doesn't deal much burst outside of Q plus the stun knife autos, which aren't enough to outright kill someone unless you are quite fed. He is mostly dps, but he is squishy and melee. Think about balrog. Balrog has very little gap closing, all he has is Q, yet because he has a good amount of burst with Q, autos, then R, this gap losing problem isn't a problem. He won't die after the jump because of tankiness either. Shade has amazing gapclosing, but his damage is so low he can't assassinate except when fed.

 

His main strength was stepping strikes, which is now shap compared to what it used to be. Stun knife is just a ridiculous item to begin with that hopefully with any sense will be removed from the game shortly. Shadow has always had to be ahead to be able to do anything. That's just how he has been and thats fine. He's a snowball hero, more of a duelist than an assassin, but if ahead enough he can kill people insanely fast. Now hes just pretty trash from all the nerfs no matter how far he is ahead. And from what i've gathered so far is that Balrog is one of the most OP heroes right now due to atom smasher being stupid broken on him? So you're comparing a duelist/assassin hero that is UP right now to a Tank/Burst hero that is OP right now. And running up onto your target is bronze level initiation. Shadows gap close either relies on catching his opponent out of position or landing your vortex on them.

Edited by Revolution

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I would also have to say his stepping strikes used to be quite intimidating. The fact that he was near impossible to kite and difficult to hit with skill shots...

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His main strength was stepping strikes, which is now shap compared to what it used to be. Stun knife is just a ridiculous item to begin with that hopefully with any sense will be removed from the game shortly. Shadow has always had to be ahead to be able to do anything. That's just how he has been and thats fine. He's a snowball hero, more of a duelist than an assassin, but if ahead enough he can kill people insanely fast. Now hes just pretty trash from all the nerfs no matter how far he is ahead. And from what i've gathered so far is that Balrog is one of the most OP heroes right now due to atom smasher being stupid broken on him? So you're comparing a duelist/assassin hero that is UP right now to a Tank/Burst hero that is OP right now. And running up onto your target is bronze level initiation. Shadows gap close either relies on catching his opponent out of position or landing your vortex on them.

Stepping strikes having a set cooldown makes it MUCH stronger than it used to be early on before attack speed items, and it isnt much weaker even with full attack speed. Until shadow gets .5 weapon speed, the cooldown change is a BUFF to stepping strikes.

 

Shadow never had to be ahead back when he was OP.

 

Stun knife being a ridiculous item doesn't mean that it is irrelevant from the conversation. Shade can still buy it whether you think it is ridiculous or not.

 

Balrog is OP, but I'm using the gameplay pattern of the hero as an example.

 

I never said anywhere in my post to just run up on them, don't know where you got that...

 

Shadow can close the gap very easily with phase cloak. If he doesn't have phase cloak, or they have detection, he can Q at max range to deal the Q damage and get within attack range. If that doesn't work, he can vortex, as you said. Shade has no problems gap closing and chasing a normal hero. Obvious exceptions are present, like when they have taser, or when they are penthos, or movespeed brine, but that doesn't mean shade has bad gapclosing, they just have amazing escapes/HUGE MOVESPEED.

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Stepping strikes having a set cooldown makes it MUCH stronger than it used to be early on before attack speed items, and it isnt much weaker even with full attack speed. Until shadow gets .5 weapon speed, the cooldown change is a BUFF to stepping strikes.

Shadow isn't an early game hero. And I don't think anyone that knows old shadow stepping strikes will disagree that his old stepping strikes was better. Stepping strikes gave him the sticking power and evasiveness to deal his damage effectively.

 

Shadow never had to be ahead back when he was OP.

Other than when he was used just for vortex and mindless split pushing, his viability revolved around him reaching late game before everyone else. And i'm not sure what time in Sotis/Aos history you are referring to him being OP. Pubs cried he was OP forever.

 

Stun knife being a ridiculous item doesn't mean that it is irrelevant from the conversation. Shade can still buy it whether you think it is ridiculous or not.

I never said it was irrelevant. I just have so much hatred for that item that I avoid talking about it in general. But didn't the damage on it get nerfed? So the stun knife active damage isn't really that great anymore?

 

Balrog is OP, but I'm using the gameplay pattern of the hero as an example.

Balrog and shadow function completely different from eachother lol so im not sure what gameplay pattern you are talking about unless its just the fact that they are both melee and one is bursty while the other isn't as much.

 

I never said anywhere in my post to just run up on them, don't know where you got that..

"And passive movespeed to help him initially get close." Then in this post you say "Shadow can close the gap with phase cloak." Both of those examples are "running up on them."

 

Shadow can close the gap very easily with phase cloak. If he doesn't have phase cloak, or they have detection, he can Q at max range to deal the Q damage and get within attack range. If that doesn't work, he can vortex, as you said. Shade has no problems gap closing and chasing a normal hero. Obvious exceptions are present, like when they have taser, or when they are penthos, or movespeed brine, but that doesn't mean shade has bad gapclosing, they just have amazing escapes/HUGE MOVESPEED.

I don't disagree that phase cloak is a much needed item on him, but relying on an item that gives unreliable gap close is not ideal. I've always preferred to execute with Q, but thats just me. Every other (except kitty i believe) melee hero has some form of gap close and while that does come with what role they are it still doesn't make up for the fact that Shadows initiation is not nearly as good as others. And you mention another massive issue I have with this game. Mobility, which is a separate topic on its own.

 

Don't get me wrong. I see where you are coming from, but I don't think Shadow needs a rework or to be replaced. He's in a bad spot right now, but minor changes and tweaks can fix it. Maybe I'll look into it and try to suggest a few fixes myself. But i'm 100% adamant against replacing him with Xel.

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Don't get me wrong. I see where you are coming from, but I don't think Shadow needs a rework or to be replaced. He's in a bad spot right now, but minor changes and tweaks can fix it. Maybe I'll look into it and try to suggest a few fixes myself. But i'm 100% adamant against replacing him with Xel.

Shadow IS an early game hero, lol. He is nowhere near as good as ranged aa lategame. His stepping strikes still do give him the same power, until you get below .5 attack speed, this change is a buff, as I said before. His attack speed cap isn't much lower than .5 anyways, it literally doesn't even make a differemce when you are at high attack speed, and when you are at low it helps a lot.

 

There was a large period of time after the item change where shadow was autobanned in inhouses for being OP. This is what I was referencing....

 

Active damage on stun knife is just a bonus, the stun is what matters IMO. I was saying that with a stunknife he still doesn't even have enough damage with the two free autos to assassinate someone, and that with stunknife has absolutely no trouble sticking to a target for a good period of time.

 

I wasn't saying that their playstyles are similar, I was saying that balrog has MUCH less gapclosing, but he is still strong because he has enough damage to kill when he jumps on someone. Shade has plenty of gapclosing, but not enough damage when he is on top of you.

 

"His passive movespeed helps him get close" does not say anything about just walking up to someone for initiation. That's like saying that brine just walking up to people to initiate with his movespeed from silver soul and W is bronze-level initiation. Shade can use his passive movespeed to get in range for vortex or Q. Phase cloak is just running up on them, but it is much better than that because you are cloaked so you just get on top if them without them noticing in time. What is the problem with that??

 

With the new ult he is good I believe, so this argument is pointless by the way, I'm just going to stop with this post.

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New stepping strikes make it harder for max weapon speed shadow to stick on a target like it's supposed to. Sometimes you would attack just before stepping strike cd is finished and then you would be standing there since the target is still in range, but they quickly run away and you would have to accelerate to catch up giving them golden time to increase some distance.

 

I think you can just increase the distance shadow jump toward the target slightly which would give him more sticking power without making him impossible to target like before

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stepping strikes right now is actually at the worst every other attack, considering its a .8s cd, and Shadow's max weapon speed is .42

You lowered the cooldown from 1 sec? I didn't even notice that change. Even better for my argument :P

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Moo, like I said earlier, Shadow wasn't banned because he was op, he was banned because people didn't want to deal with split-pushing.

I know he was auto'd because of splitting, but that doesn't mean he wasn't OP, it means he was OP at splitpushing. With unnerfed explosive retro and his passive not revealing him on the minimap, it was pretty stupid.

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It wasn't op, it was annoying. A well coordinated team could shap on a shadow split-pushing, but in casual ih, that coordination wasn't present most of the time.

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I kind of agree with moo here in that shadowis really good at closing the gap with pretty much all his toolkit and a few items can help him get some few hits

 

I also agree that the bans were from pushing and not actual fighting

 

Either making shadow do more burst would help OR make him able to sustain a chase once closed the gap would be good too. I liked the idea someone said about like a tele behind the victim. Specially with shadowy darkness effects would really fit the ninja from the shadows theme :D ...On the other hand I`m not sure if shadow should lose any of his skill. Maybe I`m being aprehensive but I can`t imagine shadow without stepping strikes or the passive or even the ulti cause they are all ninja like...but vortex is so freakin good it may screw him. My point is....whatever changes should be aimed at making him a better assassin since thats the theme. Go in, execute ninjitsu, get out. Strike from the shadows and stuff.

 

Whale any future insights on shadow and/or other characters being tweaked?

Edited by heimdallr

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Shadow is at good place now. He will be very strong in pub games since pubs tend to not pick counter/stun/tank/support or generally just don't know how to teamwork.

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So still qqing about Shadow even with new Lifesteal, MS, Armor Pen on ult?

Don't forget giant AoE 20% movespeed slow to all enemies and a 9 unit sight reduction, which feels like a blind when he uses it to me.

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So why isn't Shadow's Q crit-able, even though it's not target-able and doesn't have +120% scaling like Zera's?

Zera's isn't targetable. Shadow's q has very high base damage, is instant when you press the button (which is actually a huge advantage when my fps drops from shadow ult animation), and has a large AoE with decent scaling.

 

Those are some reasons it might not crit. I assume you've tested it and it doesn't crit? I don't know if it crits or not.

Edited by Moo

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Have you ever played xel?!?!?!?!

 

He is sooooo much more fun than shadow, but he is still within the same ballpark in terms of design. His Q is almost the same, it has 3 charges, but lower damage. W is a long range skillshot that marks the first enemy it hits, and you can reactivate the ability to blink behind the marked enemy and deal damage. E gives passive armor pen and you can activate it to gain a boost in spell armor for a short period of time. R removes allied vision for enemies (maybe other allies heroes? Can't remember exactly) and makes xel's Q range higher during the duration. His heroic passive makes his next auto deal extra damage after using an ability.

 

xel is good but not replace-shadow good

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