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Changelog v1.192 - 1.193

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Well, it's about time to they have fixed a wards trick. Yes, that's true I was who the ones of them did this while playing the Lurker. That was epic for fun, but sadly it has gotta go for now.

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Just throw a ward in front of a tower and it wouldn't kill it. Allowing you to kill the tower without harm. Was a pretty cheap tactic actually.

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Mad cuz bad? So you needed some OP mineral items to catch up in the game because you can't do it in the laning phase, and after they get nerfed you complain?

 

Who is the scrub? Don't even answer.

Theres still a laning phase in this game? I hadn't noticed.

 

Oh and I'm being totally serious, peeps roaming around like jackasses taking jung away from jung and that lanes peeps, freeing up heroes on the other side if they werent being d-bags themselves to gank ball, because they dont have to worry about staying in a lane, because no-one stays in their lane. Oh and tower pushers being able to wipe out towers just mins into the game because while the 1 or 2 that were in the lane that got ganked by the entire other team are dead and the lane gets toppled. This is the scenario of most pub games now, and before u elitist pricks start mouthing off about "play IH scrub", IH is always draft and draft is flobing retarded team char stacking as i've stated before, and is completely drole(I miss the days of 3g). Not like it matters anyways because the game has entirely gone to complete shap, to where you either stomp the crap outa the other team or get stomped. This is do to the amount of idiots playing this vs good peeps playing it because most of the good ones have left, leaving us with a pool of players thats around 70% moronic cunts. I've seen the same peeps in this game that have been playing it for 2 yrs that still have no clue how to play.

 

All and all the game is just eating up time until I can find something worth playing, but we seem to be in a phase for the last 5 yrs to create games that are dumbed down and dull, so that idiots can play them and ruin it for everyone else. It's like a GF that you know you aren't gonna stay with, but you really don't have any better options currently so you just ride it out til you do.

 

Until then, keep up the great work. <-Sarcasm, just incase you didn't know.

Edited by PhoenixRajoNight

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Theres still a laning phase in this game? I hadn't noticed.

 

Oh and I'm being totally serious, peeps roaming around like jackasses taking jung away from jung and that lanes peeps, freeing up heroes on the other side if they werent being d-bags themselves to gank ball, because they dont have to worry about staying in a lane, because no-one stays in their lane. Oh and tower pushers being able to wipe out towers just mins into the game because while the 1 or 2 that were in the lane that got ganked by the entire other team are dead and the lane gets toppled. This is the scenario of most pub games now, and before u elitist pricks start mouthing off about "play IH scrub", IH is always draft and draft is flobing retarded team char stacking as i've stated before, and is completely drole(I miss the days of 3g). Not like it matters anyways because the game has entirely gone to complete shap, to where you either stomp the crap outa the other team or get stomped. This is do to the amount of idiots playing this vs good peeps playing it because most of the good ones have left, leaving us with a pool of players thats around 70% moronic cunts. I've seen the same peeps in this game that have been playing it for 2 yrs that still have no clue how to play.

 

All and all the game is just eating up time until I can find something worth playing, but we seem to be in a phase for the last 5 yrs to create games that are dumbed down and dull, so that idiots can play them and ruin it for everyone else. It's like a GF that you know you aren't gonna stay with, but you really don't have any better options currently so you just ride it out til you do.

 

Until then, keep up the great work. <-Sarcasm, just incase you didn't know.

After reading this I'm still confused about who you're mad at or whether or not you have a point.

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...

 

Lol some troll did that in a game I was in once with Penthos and like 3 siege creeps built up with like 30 other creeps and demolished our own tower. I thought the other team was cheating because I couldn't figure out how they did it!

what troll?

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After reading this I'm still confused about who you're mad at or whether or not you have a point.

 

The entire game/mapmaking community honestly making games with dumbed down gameplay and very little learning curve, just so their game/map is popular and/or makes them more money, and if they ever do make a good game they "Balance/Refine" it into complete horse shap. As is the case of this map, that and the bullshap direction the INT favoritism continues to go.

 

You will never see my point tho, and I could say why, but I'll refrain from doing so. We'll just leave it as having to do with having a biased viewpoint about the game, because a certain part of one's body is in a place where vision can be rather skewed.

 

A long time ago it used to be just us nerds that played these games, and they were fun and challanging and peeps that played them had a brain, and then the flood of idiots came thru moronic gateway games like Farmville, Angry Birds, WoW WotLK and Madden NFL 2000. Now the video game world has pandered to these idiots taking complex in depth systems like D&D 3.5(DDO) where your char was as powerful as your intelligence and imagination to 4th ed(Neverwinter Online), where your char is standardized so that an idiot(you know, the people that couldn't even understand how to play a simple game of monopoly) can roll some virtual dice and be able to play along side you and ruin the whole experience(if the game wasn't shap in the first place that is).

 

We've gone from Chess to Checkers, we're going flobing backwards.

 

There was once someone who said "The meek shall inherit the Earth." Well it is certainly headed in that direction, because feeble-minded definitely falls into the "meek" category.

 

Yes I know who said it, but there's no reason to bring religion into this convo too.

Edited by PhoenixRajoNight

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The entire game/mapmaking community honestly making games with dumbed down gameplay and very little learning curve, just so their game/map is popular and/or makes them more money, and if they ever do make a good game they "Balance/Refine" it into complete horse shap. As is the case of this map, that and the bullshap direction the INT favoritism continues to go.

 

You will never see my point tho, and I could say why, but I'll refrain from doing so. We'll just leave it as having to do with having a biased viewpoint about the game, because a certain part of one's body is in a place where vision can be rather skewed.

 

A long time ago it used to be just us nerds that played these games, and they were fun and challanging and peeps that played them had a brain, and then the flood of idiots came thru moronic gateway games like Farmville, Angry Birds, WoW WotLK and Madden NFL 2000. Now the video game world has pandered to these idiots taking complex in depth systems like D&D 3.5(DDO) where your char was as powerful as your intelligence and imagination to 4th ed(Neverwinter Online), where your char is standardized so that an idiot(you know, the people that couldn't even understand how to play a simple game of monopoly) can roll some virtual dice and be able to play along side you and ruin the whole experience(if the game wasn't shap in the first place that is).

 

We've gone from Chess to Checkers, we're going flobing backwards.

 

There was once someone who said "The meek shall inherit the Earth." Well it is certainly headed in that direction, because feeble-minded definitely falls into the "meek" category.

 

Yes I know who said it, but there's no reason to bring religion into this convo too.

 

Im with Gino on this one, I have no idea why you are so angry about all of this or even what you're upset about. Also not sure you understand what my boy Matthew meant by "blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." But thats besides the point...

 

Honestly in the large number of rage posts you made the last couple of months I haven't seen one good suggestion or even observation that indicates you know much about the game. I'm not trying to be rude, but when you call ihers "elitists" then proceed to make some really dumb statements about game balance I cant help but role my eyes. There is no int favoritism, whatever that means, Stukov doesnt beat nova 1v1 unless the nova is bad, and the devs aren't out to ruin your game.

 

Get off your cross already, but there's no reason to bring religion into this convo too.

Edited by Phailer

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The entire game/mapmaking community honestly making games with dumbed down gameplay and very little learning curve, just so their game/map is popular and/or makes them more money, and if they ever do make a good game they "Balance/Refine" it into complete horse shap. As is the case of this map, that and the bullshap direction the INT favoritism continues to go.

 

You will never see my point tho, and I could say why, but I'll refrain from doing so. We'll just leave it as having to do with having a biased viewpoint about the game, because a certain part of one's body is in a place where vision can be rather skewed.

 

A long time ago it used to be just us nerds that played these games, and they were fun and challanging and peeps that played them had a brain, and then the flood of idiots came thru moronic gateway games like Farmville, Angry Birds, WoW WotLK and Madden NFL 2000. Now the video game world has pandered to these idiots taking complex in depth systems like D&D 3.5(DDO) where your char was as powerful as your intelligence and imagination to 4th ed(Neverwinter Online), where your char is standardized so that an idiot(you know, the people that couldn't even understand how to play a simple game of monopoly) can roll some virtual dice and be able to play along side you and ruin the whole experience(if the game wasn't shap in the first place that is).

 

We've gone from Chess to Checkers, we're going flobing backwards.

 

There was once someone who said "The meek shall inherit the Earth." Well it is certainly headed in that direction, because feeble-minded definitely falls into the "meek" category.

 

Yes I know who said it, but there's no reason to bring religion into this convo too.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but here's what I got out of this...

 

1. I'm a dumb@!^

 

2. INT favoritism

 

3. The game is bad because the devs are in on some sort of conspiracy that includes the rest of the gaming industry because they want to make money.

 

4. You are part of some super race of nerd gamers that are better than everyone else and know more about gaming.

 

5. The rest of us, including the devs are "feeble minded."

 

My responses:

 

1: Here's the thing, you say I will never see your point... Although difficult to parse the meaning from your rambling statements at times, that is simply untrue. I disagree with most of them, but I usually understand what you mean. The difference here is that I understand beliefs/view/values as partial truths that I chose to believe based on incomplete data and an imperfect interpretation process. I try to minimize those sources of error wherever possible, but there will always be noise in our metaphorical worldview. I understand that I can be wrong and frequently am... You need to prove to me that I'm wrong however, I'm not just going to believe it because you say so.

 

2. I understand your point on this... INT is stronger than it has been relative to AGI in awhile, aside from the brief period after items update where Stars/cerebro had no cooldown. That said, I do not believe INT is overpowered, nor do I think there's any conspiracy by the devs to make INT OP. The funny thing is that a few people on this forum have complaining about the exact opposite recently (AGI favoritism). Think about it... How does it benefit Red/Ekco to have an unbalanced game? If you don't believe me about the INT balance go play some IH and you'll see for yourself. You still really need an AGI carry to dish out damage. They still tend to have the highest kills and most farm/money on the winning team. AGI hard carries can't carry the game starting ten minutes in anymore, too bad. Now they need 30 mins, space to farm, and maybe a few kills... Just like every other moba out there. There are still plenty of agi/str carry heroes that provide gank/laning/kill potential early in the game and scale pretty well late, they just don't scale as well as hard carries. Now Nova/leo/darpa/boros have to have help from their team instead of solo carry starting at minute 10. Go to any other Moba, you'll see that hard carries require the same, if not longer, farming period to become a carry. Gank heroes have been nerfed due to many in the pub scene calling for it. No teamwork makes gank stronger.

 

3. The devs don't make money from this and know they won't. What's there incentive then? All they want to do is stay in the top 5. If they don't the game dies anyway, so that should be your goal as well if you want to continue playing this game.

 

4. You were/are pretty decent at this game, but there are plenty of people that are way better and understand the game better. You reference us elitist Ihers, yet say we're not nerds somehow. How are we not among your group of elite baller nerds if we get together every night to play some mini game with the same 40 people? SOunds pretty nerdy to me.

 

5. Calling everyone else an idiot is usually bad way of convincing them of your perspective.

Edited by ginosaji

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Correct me if I'm wrong but here's what I got out of this...

 

1. I'm a dumb@!^

 

2. INT favoritism

 

3. The game is bad because the devs are in on some sort of conspiracy that includes the rest of the gaming industry because they want to make money.

 

4. You are part of some super race of nerd gamers that are better than everyone else and know more about gaming.

 

5. The rest of us, including the devs are "feeble minded."

 

My responses:

 

1: Here's the thing, you say I will never see your point... Although difficult to parse the meaning from your rambling statements at times, that is simply untrue. I disagree with most of them, but I usually understand what you mean. The difference here is that I understand beliefs/view/values as partial truths that I chose to believe based on incomplete data and an imperfect interpretation process. I try to minimize those sources of error wherever possible, but there will always be noise in our metaphorical worldview. I understand that I can be wrong and frequently am... You need to prove to me that I'm wrong however, I'm not just going to believe it because you say so.

 

2. I understand your point on this... INT is stronger than it has been relative to AGI in awhile, aside from the brief period after items update where Stars/cerebro had no cooldown. That said, I do not believe INT is overpowered, nor do I think there's any conspiracy by the devs to make INT OP. The funny thing is that a few people on this forum have complaining about the exact opposite recently (AGI favoritism). Think about it... How does it benefit Red/Ekco to have an unbalanced game? If you don't believe me about the INT balance go play some IH and you'll see for yourself. You still really need an AGI carry to dish out damage. They still tend to have the highest kills and most farm/money on the winning team. AGI hard carries can't carry the game starting ten minutes in anymore, too bad. Now they need 30 mins, space to farm, and maybe a few kills... Just like every other moba out there. There are still plenty of agi/str carry heroes that provide gank/laning/kill potential early in the game and scale pretty well late, they just don't scale as well as hard carries. Now Nova/leo/darpa/boros have to have help from their team instead of solo carry starting at minute 10. Go to any other Moba, you'll see that hard carries require the same, if not longer, farming period to become a carry. Gank heroes have been nerfed due to many in the pub scene calling for it. No teamwork makes gank stronger. Warp Shard removed, Teleport still in utility tree and harder to get in new talents tree if you are not INT.

 

3. The devs don't make money from this and know they won't. What's there incentive then? All they want to do is stay in the top 5. If they don't the game dies anyway, so that should be your goal as well if you want to continue playing this game.

 

4. You were/are pretty decent at this game, but there are plenty of people that are way better and understand the game better. You reference us elitist Ihers, yet say we're not nerds somehow. How are we not among your group of elite baller nerds if we get together every night to play some mini game with the same 40 people? SOunds pretty nerdy to me.

 

5. Calling everyone else an idiot is usually bad way of convincing them of your perspective.

 

I definitely stated money and/OR popularity, I also stated that the games get made/refined/balanced for the mass of idiots.I did not say the creators were idiots, only refered to them as catering to idiots. I also did not say that the elitist IHers were idiots and your pulling from a post besides the one you quoted. My comment on the IHers was entirely seperate, and was brought up because almost everytime anyone not in the IH community says anything, a post is made stating, "You obviously don't IH" or "That's a pubstar for ya" or "Play IH scrub" or the likes. I used to play IH, when it was 3G, and enjoyed it, then draft came along and ruined it.

 

As far as my statement about you never getting the point, I said as such because every post I have ever read from you is along the lines of "The devs can do no wrong" and "Every balance change that they make is right". I can't really delve further into explaining without getting graphic to the point of major BM.

 

If you really want me to try and prove it to you about INT favoritism I will try, but it'll most likely be beating a dead horse because, I've stated many examples over the last few months. I'll just reflect on some of those quickly. Pendant is the only Duran's starting item affordable w/o wealth, INT Items are lower cost effectively and literally to any other item of the same tier and/or equatable abilities and stats. Every tier of int can be upgraded into the next higher tier, where AGI and STR cannot. BHM gets nerfed, and lets not forget about the nerf to Atom Smasher awhile back, but at the same time it could be a buff depending upon whether you are a bruiser or a tank STR Class(or if you are a carry trying to have some HP with the ocelot item line) so IDRK how to place that one, but figured I'd bring it up, while Star's Fury remains at its original 125%. INT is almost always the first of the new heroes to be added in new content lately it seems. Stukov(an INT) hero is given 2 max hp dot ticks, when pyre was nerfed to current hp a yr or more ago, and still remains at that level, Kyrak was given one as well, but its still not 2. Grav Edge nerfed by 5%, Khali nerfed by 20%(Effective nerf on item without any others to enhance it is 7%{or other effects helping or hindering it}, which is still a greater nerf). Phase cloak CD increased while lockbox and CD is decreased. Jungle creep EXP nerfed hurting carries essentially helping INT and support heroes, Faster creep waves happened a long time ago, but like I said it goes back awhile, this in turn made jung creeps worth less for carries, even non-dedicated junglers. This in return hurts gankability as does the EXP drop to carries allowing them to slow down pushers and INT bursters from snowballing. Jung creep buffs were removed this also hurt carries the most. Increased respawn time hurts INT the least, because they are usually in the back and die the least, tanks are up front taking damage and carries have less resilience than tanks and are just behind them if not next to them. When INT's do recieve a nerf they are usually shortly revisited to get a balncing buff, while others recieve nerfs and remain gimped for months or longer.

 

There thats not all of them but I think it's a pretty good list to go on, I've stuck to general changes to the game, or changes that can be fairly equatable to one another for comparison. I'm not going to try delving into hero vs hero because I just don't have that sort of time.

 

As far as dumbing down the game and pandering to the masses goes I'll try to jot a few examples of that down here as well. Many assasin type chars have had their ability to be an ASSASSIN removed, letting people get away with doing stupid crap, and profiting from it, I.E. Tower diving, over extending, stealing jung right infront of an "assassin class char" and being able to live to tell the tail w/o get away mechanics or items, abandoning lanes, or not even bothering to lane at all. Faster waves to make game faster, lessining the impact of items on the game more, this also helps int as int profits greatly after only 1-3 items, while carries usually need 3+ to really get going, same with tanks, less so with bruisers(about 2 to get going). Overall effect means less thinking about min-maxing item builds, complimentary items, synergizing, situational items, etc. Talent tree greatly dumbed down from the old one, with less points and less refinability/versatility, but making it easier for less experienced and/or less intelligent people to use. Removing jung creep buffs and lowering their exp means that you don't have to bother with trying to save them for that fight against a certain hero when that armor boost or lifeleech will make all the difference. This removed a mechanic that could change the flux of a battle or a duel or even the whole game, effectively removing some of the strategy from the game.

 

I doubt however that any of this will sink in, as none of it has before.

 

I was also not stating in my comment that every IHer was an elitist I was refering to the Elitists in the IHers that decide that they are better just because they play a stacked char team comp game, knowing exactly what everyone is going and cant go and being able to block another player from playing a good hero and choosing a hero set to beat the other. IH is not the PRO way to play it is the EZ way to play because you know exactly what you need to do, it's like looking at the answer sheet before the test, so how it makes you a better gamer, than someone who goes in not knowing how some to all of his teamates and opponents play and what they will play, I don't have the slightest idea. The only thing that would even be arguable as to why IH would be more pro, would be that the player pool is more experienced and/or harder to play against. That can be argued against easily tho as even if your good, doesn't mean all your pub teamates will be, so effectively I think that cancels that out.

Edited by PhoenixRajoNight

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Im with Gino on this one, I have no idea why you are so angry about all of this or even what you're upset about. Also not sure you understand what my boy Matthew meant by "blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." But thats besides the point...

 

Honestly in the large number of rage posts you made the last couple of months I haven't seen one good suggestion or even observation that indicates you know much about the game. I'm not trying to be rude, but when you call ihers "elitists" then proceed to make some really dumb statements about game balance I cant help but role my eyes. There is no int favoritism, whatever that means, Stukov doesnt beat nova 1v1 unless the nova is bad, and the devs aren't out to ruin your game.

 

Get off your cross already, but there's no reason to bring religion into this convo too.

 

You offer no argument to support your statements, and want to comment about my "dumb statements".

 

I offer no good suggestions in your view, Ive had several of my suggestions agreed with and liked, and what is the current status of shade vortex?

Oh yeah thats right 0.5 cast time within increased range to cast it.

Which I'm pretty sure is along the lines if not eaxactly one of my suggestions debating about it being too long, and that if the cast time had to stay then it should be about ,5 secs and have a larger range, then I also suggested tiering it since no-one wanted to listen to that "bad suggestion" then, but oooh look now its at that place right now isnt it?

 

It was Jesus that said it by the way, IN Matthew 5:5, but thats arguing semantics, so I'm just gonna let it slide, cuz it's not worth dwelling on it. It is also called a play on words, using it as I did. Which is a kind of irony(real irony mind you, not the blatant misuse of it that everyone else misdefines it as), which in turn coincidentally is also semantics(Wordplay is fun).

Self loathing crybabies always strike out at others because of a lack of overall thought, and an abundance of arrogance.

My lack of overall thought, lmfao, so your 1 liner apparently has more thought in it.

 

Oh and yeah I'll admit to being arrogant, because I do have a feeling of superiority, having dealt with the plethora of idiocy and illogical, irrational, and unreasonable statements and claims made by many a person w/o any sort of explanation or example offered for their point of so called "Debatable Position".

 

I give you the following.

 

[Questioner: Do you believe there are other Intelligent lifeforms in the universe?

 

Person 1: Yes, because just by sheer statistical probability, from the amount of Galaxies, Stars and Planets there is almost assuredly other intelligent life forms in our universe.(This is me, with a statement and a reason behind it.)

 

Person 2: No.

 

Questioner: Why?

 

Person 2: There's no such things as aliens & just cuz.(This is you and many others, with a statement and repeating that statement over and over in different ways, but with no addition of reasoning as to why.)]

 

So yeah I'm arrogant, when it comes to this shap with plenty of reason to be so.

 

As far as self-loathing, again you missed the logic bus on that one, How could I hate myself and think I'm superior? That right there is very contradictory, and in the same sentence no less. You should take more time and plan out your "insult" on someone, looks like you need some more time to think it thru.

 

Last but not least we have a Crybaby hmmm, I'm pretty sure if I was crying I wouldn't type out an actual argument, I'd prolly just lash out with a poorly thought out jerk reaction insult, just like the one you have made here.

Edited by PhoenixRajoNight

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Gravity was 20% now 15%, that looks like 5% but since it is calculated before spell resist it is more in that way. Another way to look at it is as a 25% nerf to the true damage. And crit was unstopably strong and was long overdue for a nerf like micro.

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Gravity was 20% now 15%, that looks like 5% but since it is calculated before spell resist it is more in that way. Another way to look at it is as a 25% nerf to the true damage. And crit was unstopably strong and was long overdue for a nerf like micro.

Pretty sure crit is determined by the amount of WD that actually gets thru(or would) as well, and crit is not unstoppably strong, and like I've said before we've been down this EXACT nerf road before. there is also not that many chars that actually go crit. Most of the time its a Cain, Nova, Boros or Shade. Sometimes some other chars will get crit, but its not really standard build on most other chars, and not all of them will get khali in a crit build, sometimes its double rav for the WS and crit chance.

 

It's a moot point anyways in the discussion, I was not talking about whether or not the nerf was needed or not, I'm talking equatable nerfs, and int nerfs being less overall than anyone else, buffs being greater to them and gameplay changes being advantageous to them. The khali blade nerf was definitely more of a hit than grav edge.

Edited by PhoenixRajoNight

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Pretty sure crit is determined by the amount of WD that actually gets thru(or would) as well, and crit is not unstoppably strong, and like I've said before we've been down this EXACT nerf road before. there is also not that many chars that actually go crit. Most of the time its a Cain, Nova, Boros or Shade. Sometimes some other chars will get crit, but its not really standard build on most other chars, and not all of them will get khali in a crit build, sometimes its double rav for the WS and crit chance.

 

It's a moot point anyways in the discussion, I was not talking about whether or not the nerf was needed or not, I'm talking equatable nerfs, and int nerfs being less overall than anyone else, buffs being greater to them and gameplay changes being advantageous to them. The khali blade nerf was definitely more of a hit than grav edge.

The reason we don't think that there is favoritism towards int for the recent nerfs to agi is because agi was stronger than int before, hence it got nerfed. Carries dominated mid-late game due to their almost completely risk-free high-farm jungle that let them come out ahead in farm and exp without next to no counter play, and then procceed to carry the game with their lategame carry that was given a free laning phase. Most int heroes didn't farm the jungle as easily as agi and weren't able to do this effectively, not to mention that having all that farm on a lategame carry was better than having it on an int caster that hits their powerspike during midgame. To top it all off, lethal barb+executioner's axe was a very cheap way to gain max attack speed, amazing farming capabilities, and huge damage against other heroes. The counter to this was armor, but contamination shard bypassed this and made carries nearly unstoppable once they had the 3 items mentioned, and it only gets worse as the game goes on into lategame, where carries hit their strongest powerspike in comparison to the other classes.

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I definitely stated money and/OR popularity, I also stated that the games get made/refined/balanced for the mass of idiots.I did not say the creators were idiots, only refered to them as catering to idiots. I also did not say that the elitist IHers were idiots and your pulling from a post besides the one you quoted. My comment on the IHers was entirely seperate, and was brought up because almost everytime anyone not in the IH community says anything, a post is made stating, "You obviously don't IH" or "That's a pubstar for ya" or "Play IH scrub" or the likes. I used to play IH, when it was 3G, and enjoyed it, then draft came along and ruined it

 

I apologize if I misquoted you.... yes there is elitism, I've participated in it as well, but I'm working on that. My point with the popularity thing is that they need to cater the game to some group or it wouldn't exist. A group playing an unpayed minigame in an arcade is about as far away from establishment mass media gaming that your talking about as any game can be.

 

As far as my statement about you never getting the point, I said as such because every post I have ever read from you is along the lines of "The devs can do no wrong" and "Every balance change that they make is right". I can't really delve further into explaining without getting graphic to the point of major BM.

 

If you really want me to try and prove it to you about INT favoritism I will try, but it'll most likely be beating a dead horse because, I've stated many examples over the last few months. I'll just reflect on some of those quickly. Pendant is the only Duran's starting item affordable w/o wealth (Pendant is still a trash item on most heroes... Machete is better on INT heroes in almost every situation. Buckler is pretty bad too, as DST sucks. Machete is the only good Duran's item.) INT Items are lower cost effectively and literally to any other item of the same tier and/or equatable abilities and stats. Every tier of int can be upgraded into the next higher tier(Gravity edge, Nitrogen retrofit, symphonic seed all have useless components as far as actives or stats. The components are useless till you buy the full item. The only really useful T3 INT caster item that has good components is Yamato reactor.), where AGI and STR cannot (Phase cloak, executioner's axe, stun knife, and vibranium shield are all exceptionally useful mid tier items that also build into the most commonly purchased high tier DPS items.) BHM gets nerfed, and lets not forget about the nerf to Atom Smasher awhile back (smasher was far too strong, it was what 80% for awhile there, it was absurd. Anyway, it's not meant to be a dps item. It's meant as a utility/teamfight/niche item for certain heroes in certain scenarios) , but at the same time it could be a buff depending upon whether you are a bruiser or a tank STR Class(or if you are a carry trying to have some HP with the ocelot item line) so IDRK how to place that one, but figured I'd bring it up, while Star's Fury remains at its original 125%. INT is almost always the first of the new heroes to be added in new content lately(So? There have been like 3 heroes added in the past year and two of them are strength) it seems. Stukov(an INT) hero is given 2 max hp dot ticks(is your problem with the mechanic in general or do you think stukov is still too strong? I don't know, havent played very much lately.), when pyre was nerfed to current hp a yr or more ago, and still remains at that level (It was bufffed to 8% from 7% a month or so ago), Kyrak was given one as well, but its still not 2. Grav Edge nerfed by 5%, Khali nerfed by 20%(Effective nerf on item without any others to enhance it is 7%{or other effects helping or hindering it}, which is still a greater nerf). Phase cloak CD increased while lockbox and CD is decrease (Lockbox got an enormous nerf with the range down to 4. Pretty useless item now). Jungle creep EXP nerfed hurting carries essentially helping INT and support heroes, Faster creep waves happened a long time ago, but like I said it goes back awhile, this in turn made jung creeps worth less for carries, even non-dedicated junglers. This in return hurts gankability as does the EXP drop to carries allowing them to slow down pushers and INT bursters from snowballing. Jung creep buffs were removed this also hurt carries the most(The aura from firebat was removed because it was OP on MK, has nothing to do with INT or AGI.). Increased respawn time hurts INT the least, because they are usually in the back and die the least, (I disagree, your team's carry should be dieing the least of any hero as he is the most valuable of the team. Early and mid game they need farm for items and to help the team if towers are getting pushed.) tanks are up front taking damage and carries have less resilience than tanks and are just behind them if not next to them. When INT's do recieve a nerf they are usually shortly revisited to get a balncing buff, while others recieve nerfs and remain gimped for months or longer.

 

There thats not all of them but I think it's a pretty good list to go on, I've stuck to general changes to the game, or changes that can be fairly equatable to one another for comparison. I'm not going to try delving into hero vs hero because I just don't have that sort of time.

 

As far as dumbing down the game and pandering to the masses goes I'll try to jot a few examples of that down here as well. Many assasin type chars have had their ability to be an ASSASSIN removed, letting people get away with doing stupid crap, and profiting from it, I.E. Tower diving, over extending, stealing jung right infront of an "assassin class char" and being able to live to tell the tail w/o get away mechanics or items, abandoning lanes, or not even bothering to lane at all. Faster waves to make game faster, lessining the impact of items on the game more, this also helps int as int profits greatly after only 1-3 items, while carries usually need 3+ to really get going, same with tanks, less so with bruisers(about 2 to get going). Overall effect means less thinking about min-maxing item builds, complimentary items, synergizing, situational items, etc. Talent tree greatly dumbed down from the old one, with less points and less refinability/versatility, but making it easier for less experienced and/or less intelligent people to use. Removing jung creep buffs and lowering their exp means that you don't have to bother with trying to save them for that fight against a certain hero when that armor boost or lifeleech will make all the difference. This removed a mechanic that could change the flux of a battle or a duel or even the whole game, effectively removing some of the strategy from the game.

 

I doubt however that any of this will sink in, as none of it has before.

 

I was also not stating in my comment that every IHer was an elitist I was refering to the Elitists in the IHers that decide that they are better just because they play a stacked char team comp game, knowing exactly what everyone is going and cant go and being able to block another player from playing a good hero and choosing a hero set to beat the other. IH is not the PRO way to play it is the EZ way to play because you know exactly what you need to do, it's like looking at the answer sheet before the test, so how it makes you a better gamer, than someone who goes in not knowing how some to all of his teamates and opponents play and what they will play, I don't have the slightest idea. The only thing that would even be arguable as to why IH would be more pro, would be that the player pool is more experienced and/or harder to play against. That can be argued against easily tho as even if your good, doesn't mean all your pub teamates will be, so effectively I think that cancels that out.

 

Out of all of that, you have like 4-5 legitimate points while you have maybe 5-10 pieces of your argument support that are simply wrong, inaccurate, or misleading.

 

If draft is not the "pro" way to play, why do all the pros in DotA2 and League play with draft? You can decide not to like draft and that's fine, but it most certainly is the most "pro" way to play a moba.

 

Also... I agree with moo on the jungle nerf. It was certainly needed. Being able to get more exp and more gold in the jungle than even solo mid lanes was simply idiotic. Carries are meant to scale into the late game. With guaranteed jungle, you either had to end the game before 30 minutes with a push line-up or you had to hope your carry countered their carry. Now, you get the gold and exp somewhere on the level between a dual lane and a solo lane, which I think is reasonable. Another thing it did was force you to take heroes into the jungle that have high gank potential to support your other lanes and maximize you gold/min throughout the early game. Bushes actually work now too, so this helps ganks heroes immensely. Overall, the nerf to the jungle promotes a more interesting and balanced mid game that favors teamfight over splitpush or afk jungle farming races.

Edited by ginosaji

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Out of all of that, you have like 4-5 legitimate points while you have maybe 5-10 pieces of your argument support that are simply wrong, inaccurate, or misleading.

 

If draft is not the "pro" way to play, why do all the pros in DotA2 and League play with draft? You can decide not to like draft and that's fine, but it most certainly is the most "pro" way to play a moba.

 

So because 150 yrs ago it was acceptable to own slaves, made it ok? W/e standards you followed, or beliefs you had, slavery always has been and always will be wrong. Just because it is the way something is done, doesn't make it this or that. Just because WoW is now played, or was IDK I stopped paying attention to it a long time ago, by a shap ton of people it did/does not make it a good game. WoW has utterly ruined the mmo market for yrs, with their crappy get as many subscribers as we can and nevermind how shapty we make the game itself to do so, frame of mind. Many WoW clones have popped out that only offer some different pixels to look at while your playing the same game. I am most certainly not alone in the feeling that WoW has flobed the MMO industry for awhile now.

 

There is absolutely nothing pro about playing draft whatsoever, you go into the game with every possible advantage available. Being able to regulate what the other team can play and being able to modify your build as you go, knowing what the other team is picking. It's almost as bad as playing poker with hands revealed. They also prolly all play that way because it is easier to, and they want to win. Most peeps enjoy winning, and most peeps will take the easy way out, most of the time, so does that answer your question or are you ready to jump off that bridge over there because it's the "pro" way to live life.

 

It's funny that you say the components to int items suck and you include symphonic in there, yet in here earlier you talk about the gp10 items needing a nerf, so then by that the goggles are not useless. Lightning rod can be equated to stun knife, paradox to executioners, powerstone to vibranium, and flare gun to phase cloak. HP, damage and stat "useless components" as you put it, from there are pretty much equal. LB Just got nerfed(I highly doubt it'll stay this way and maybe even be a reverse nerf like the did with the cd, where it was at 35 they bumped it to 60 and then buffed it to 30, so maybe this will be like that, decrease to 4 up to 10 decrease to 8, net effect gain of 1u range.) and will effect Summers and Boros(for peeps that need that crutch to land bolas) more imho than it will rory and gara. Doesn't matter that pyre was buffed its still Current HP and was made so because max hp "was op bullshap" but then you guys go and give a max hp abilities to 2 new chars, which is contradictory and u give 2 of them to 1 INT, and to top it all off all three of them have additional effects tied to them.

 

As far as pendant being trash, I'll agree it's unique is trash for your own char in energy gain, but it gives you more hp than machette does and gives you the same amount of int that machette gives in agi and gives you energy regen, the energy drain on other chars is super effective too, you realize how much that drain shuts down a Zera, Boros Balrog and sometimes even a Shade, it hurts ranged peeps as well but seriously hurts melee. Int Bursters w/ pendant against other peeps with less range can shut down their chase, get away and CS. Energy is hard to come by on alot of carries and bruisers, and while you may think it ineffective because your chars is still running out of energy its hurting the other teamate, being int you'll have a bigger pool and faster regen than them and its easy to win the lane that way, and the pendant with lasher is completely annoying. Your argument that buckler sucks because DST sucks is invalid since its the only one that even has an upgrade, as it should considering it cost the most and costing 825 is the only thing that causes buckler to suck, as far as the item itself itd be well worth it if you could start with it, but since you cant you might as well get goggles or lost treasure.

 

As far as aura getting removed for MK, it doesn't matter why, it still effects the rest of the mechanics and gameplay behind it, by removing it completely. This is also a cop out, and maybe the direction shoulda been to fix it for that purpose of it. When/If command to toggle if he uses his ulti to capture a firebat its replaced with a diff firebat, or another work around, removing a whole mechanic for 1 ability on 1 hero is simply poorly thought out and ass backwards.

 

So who's the one really trying to be misleading, by saying that components to int items suck, when they clearly do not. Not to mention that ihan gives you permanant 60 int and 300 hp, after you sell it freeing up a slot if you need it for another item.

Edited by PhoenixRajoNight

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It's funny that you say the components to int items suck and you include symphonic in there, yet in here earlier you talk about the gp10 items needing a nerf, so then by that the goggles are not useless. Lightning rod can be equated to stun knife, paradox to executioners, powerstone to vibranium, and flare gun to phase cloak. HP, damage and stat "useless components" as you put it, from there are pretty much equal. LB Just got nerfed(I highly doubt it'll stay this way and maybe even be a reverse nerf like the did with the cd, where it was at 35 they bumped it to 60 and then buffed it to 30, so maybe this will be like that, decrease to 4 up to 10 decrease to 8, net effect gain of 1u range.) and will effect Summers and Boros(for peeps that need that crutch to land bolas) more imho than it will rory and gara. Doesn't matter that pyre was buffed its still Current HP and was made so because max hp "was op bullshap" but then you guys go and give a max hp abilities to 2 new chars, which is contradictory and u give 2 of them to 1 INT, and to top it all off all three of them have additional effects tied to them.

 

 

 

 

So who's the one really trying to be misleading, by saying that components to int items suck, when they clearly do not. Not to mention that ihan gives you permanant 60 int and 300 hp, after you sell it freeing up a slot if you need it for another item.

Lightning rod isn't a true caster item, you get it on some heroes in certain situations, mainly on Null and jakk, who are more INT-AA than they are true casters like brawler/cow/vergil. Flare gun is only really viable on vergil, even then only in a very limited set of circumstances. It's almost always better to go gravity/yamato first. Ihan is kind of a bad item in most circumstances as well. The only time I would get it before yamato/grav/seeds/nitro is if I'm having a very difficult time staying alive early game. Other than that, it's really only good if you're ahead and after 2-3 other core items. Phase cloak/stun knife/executioners axe are all standard items that people build on dps heroes nearly every game.

 

Your arguing that Lockbox will get buffed in the future, therefore it proves you point that it's OP now? I just don't get it.

 

You brought up the MK aura as an example of how there's INT favoritism, yet it only helps clear that camp faster aside from the intended purpose of not giving the buff to MK. You literally said "it hurts carries." It doesn't hurt them whatsoever, in fact it helps them. This is my point in my argument here, you're just saying things prove your point even when the opposite is actually the case. You're taking random facts that aren't related to the matter at hand and offering them as proof of your point.

 

As far as draft not being the "pro" thing to do, you can redefine the term "professional" if you'd like, but that doesn't counter the fact the it is actually what the pro circuit does in mobas. Maybe mobas were better 7-8 years ago, I don't know, I haven't been playing that long.

Edited by ginosaji

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Lightning rod isn't a true caster item, you get it on some heroes in certain situations, mainly on Null and jakk, who are more INT-AA than they are true casters like brawler/cow/vergil. Flare gun is only really viable on vergil, even then only in a very limited set of circumstances. It's almost always better to go gravity/yamato first. Ihan is kind of a bad item in most circumstances as well. The only time I would get it before yamato/grav/seeds/nitro is if I'm having a very difficult time staying alive early game. Other than that, it's really only good if you're ahead and after 2-3 other core items. Phase cloak/stun knife/executioners axe are all standard items that people build on dps heroes nearly every game.

 

Your arguing that Lockbox will get buffed in the future, therefore it proves you point that it's OP now? I just don't get it.

 

You brought up the MK aura as an example of how there's INT favoritism, yet it only helps clear that camp faster aside from the intended purpose of not giving the buff to MK. You literally said "it hurts carries." It doesn't hurt them whatsoever, in fact it helps them. This is my point in my argument here, you're just saying things prove your point even when the opposite is actually the case. You're taking random facts that aren't related to the matter at hand and offering them as proof of your point.

 

As far as draft not being the "pro" thing to do, you can redefine the term "professional" if you'd like, but that doesn't counter the fact the it is actually what the pro circuit does in mobas. Maybe mobas were better 7-8 years ago, I don't know, I haven't been playing that long.

 

I did not argue MK's arua being a part of INT favoritism, thats way out of context. I was stating that your reason for removing nuet creep buffs that you get for killing them, for the sake of 1 chars ability to control said creep is poorly thought out. The nuet creep buff mechanic was something that helped carries to gank. In that sense of removing them since your INTs usually(or atleast used to, now everyone seems to be stealing those creep, helped with killing/ganking lanes) were usually the ones in lane and controlling them.

 

Your item defense is arguing technicalities and opinion of usefulness of items. Powerstone is great lane sustain, and ihan is as well and is only 1800 more after that for some good health energy and int, with 30 int to start and the second highest straight int stat item in the game after having it for 10 mins. You can argue about lightning rod not being an INT item, but I could say the same about vibranium. Lightning Rod really helps with creep kills, and also helps zone-out/harass other heroes(especially melee). Whether or not you consider it to be an INT component is sheer technicality, as it is very useful and a component of cerebro. As far as flare gun only being viable on vergil, your just crazy saying that. It works with Erukul(not as much as the old version of its upgrade Sunflare, but still plenty useful)Rancor, Raynor, Lurker, Rory(any extra damage inside of a molly is very useful) Cow and Unix. Flare has its uses on some others, but I'll only pick ones for where its greater utility and usefulness are the case. As far as getting nitro before Ihan, I don't really get that, because as an int burst, slow really isnt gonna help you seal the deal on a char if you cant blow them up with your combo. Nitrogen imho is more for your big team fights if you can do some sort of aoe to slow a group, If your only going to manage to slow one person and dont have aoe Pulse hammer is a much better choice early game to slow, because its alot cheaper and allows more lane harass by using your AA, and not having to wait on cds to do so and save energy waiting for the right moment to hit them at the right HP level after harass. That all being said, going straight to grav edge every game is very poorly thought out, I find getting 1 utility item in the Tier 2 or is it Teir 3? range a much better first choice, with being able to adjust your char to the game properly, If your lane opponent can out sustain you and you just go for broke, or if the other guy can harass you more, or your having trouble with CS, and you don't get an item to compensate for that, and your just grabbing straight out INT stats for 4k minerals worth of game time, your just a bad player. That would be like a carry taking hom, phantom, or sliptide as their first item.

 

As far as your LITERAL translation on the word pro, all I can say is your now claiming semantics just to prove YOUR point. Pro player is used in context far exceeding the closed definition you state. Its the opposite in use of newb and less pompous than "Leet". We all understand that when someone is calling you a newb they are not just announcing that you are new to the game all the time, just like when someone calls someone pro, doesn't mean they are saying to do it for a living/get paid for it. Pro is mostly used to define someone who is good or better at something. So keep your literal usages for classtime, because this is real life and language is an evolving and flexible thing.

 

The lockbox comment is more on the lines of what I was stating before It just got nerfed and using comparable nerfs. It's an INT item so I'm sure it'll get counter buffed shortly back to where it was, while the cd for both phase cloak and lb have been where they are at for awhile. I really don't believe the jury is in on that. The change on unit radius will prolly not stay where its at, because the devs seem to listen to qqing about int nerfs more, whether the point is valid or not, imho. The CD's on both items seem to be staying where they are however. It seems looking thru everything tho LB is at 40 secs now so the point is moot anyways, unless I switch the standing entirely to impact dials CD being reduced, but meh, I'll just let you have this one, because my case still stands on good footing w/o it.

Edited by PhoenixRajoNight

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I did not argue MK's arua being a part of INT favoritism, thats way out of context. I was stating that your reason for removing nuet creep buffs that you get for killing them, for the sake of 1 chars ability to control said creep is poorly thought out. The nuet creep buff mechanic was something that helped carries to gank. In that sense of removing them since your INTs usually(or atleast used to, now everyone seems to be stealing those creep, helped with killing/ganking lanes) were usually the ones in lane and controlling them.

Jung creep buffs were removed this also hurt carries the most.

 

No, you mentioned it in the middle of a long paragraph in a previous post... The first sentence of that paragraph was... "If you really want me to try and prove it to you about INT favoritism I will try, but it'll most likely be beating a dead horse because, I've stated many examples over the last few months."

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No, you mentioned it in the middle of a long paragraph in a previous post... The first sentence of that paragraph was... "If you really want me to try and prove it to you about INT favoritism I will try, but it'll most likely be beating a dead horse because, I've stated many examples over the last few months."

 

And your comment to that was that was, It was done because of MK. My comment back was that it doesn't matter the reasoning behind the change, but that it still affects carries and other elements of the game, to which your comment was that I was stating mk aura favors INTs, which is obviously not what I stated at all.

Edited by PhoenixRajoNight

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Omfg, i just figured out who merinor was a smurf account for.

 

You prove your idiocy, in regards to this, because I don't nor have I ever boiied about boros being op, and Merinor is also an INT QQer, claiming the opposite of pretty much everything I've said about this game for the last 6 months or so.

 

I am also, in your words, too "arrogant" to pretend to be someone else. Which means I take pride in my stance and beliefs and would not feel the need to do such, nor would I want to, for I wouldn't feel the need to corroborate myself, or argue the opposite stupidly to try and prove a point.

 

^LOGIC, you should try it sometime.

Edited by PhoenixRajoNight

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I give you the following.

 

[Questioner: Do you believe there are other Intelligent lifeforms in the universe?

 

Person 1: Yes, because just by sheer statistical probability, from the amount of Galaxies, Stars and Planets there is almost assuredly other intelligent life forms in our universe.(This is me, with a statement and a reason behind it.)

 

Person 2: No.

 

Questioner: Why?

 

Person 2: There's no such things as aliens & just cuz.(This is you and many others, with a statement and repeating that statement over and over in different ways, but with no addition of reasoning as to why.)]

 

^^

 

Are you serious? What the fap. Stay off this forum.

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