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JustZerO

500% Weapon Speed cap

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Hand of Mengsk in combination with the active attack speed talent (fury I believe) allows you to activate +110% attack speed + high leech (with talent + HOM is 33% leech on top of this attack speed) on a regular basis very early game, this combo is substantially better than lethal barb (20% crit + some agi + 100% attack speed on crit proc) but is available much, much earlier in the game.

 

No doubt things will be adjusted, but in my experiences "hot fixes" are rare and don't happen except in the most extreme of cases, generally requiring it actually be a bug rather than something being too strong. Also I tried to beta several times, but every time I did people were just playing League or Dota.

 

That item and talent in combination will not be sufficient to reach the old cap (meaning any issue with that combo isn't related to or exacerbated by the cap change). Together, those items provide +225% attack speed. Still a far cry from the old 350% cap. Further, fury has a 3 minute cooldown.

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That item and talent in combination will not be sufficient to reach the old cap (meaning any issue with that combo isn't related to or exacerbated by the cap change). Together, those items provide +225% attack speed. Still a far cry from the old 350% cap. Further, fury has a 3 minute cooldown.

 

There was no equivalent method to be able to attack 60% faster at level 1 in 1.47 unless a hero specific ability allowed it (Cain). Stating that something is not too strong, merely because it doesn't let you break the attack speed cap of the previous version, is flawed, since you can still attack at a much faster rate at level 1 than you could in 1.47, breaking the cap aside.

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There was no equivalent method to be able to attack 60% faster at level 1 in 1.47 unless a hero specific ability allowed it (Cain). Stating that something is not too strong, merely because it doesn't let you break the attack speed cap of the previous version, is flawed, since you can still attack at a much faster rate at level 1 than you could in 1.47, breaking the cap aside.

 

This discussion relates specifically to the increased weapon speed cap. If the change in the cap didn't change the utility of the item or combo to which you refer, then your comment isn't relevant to the current discussion. I didn't say anything about the relative strength of the combo you mentioned--I only pointed out that it was unaffected by the topic of this thread--the increased weapon speed cap. It sounds like you are trying to make a point related to the new talent, not to the weapon speed cap. As an aside, I'm pretty confident that there is no way you will be able to buy HoM at level 1 in a normal game.

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I've already shown multiple times (in this thread) that going significantly beyond the previous cap does require you to sacrifice other items in your build. While this change, as currently implemented, may provide a slight buff for AA heroes, I don't think you can convincingly argue that this is a significant buff for all AA heroes. Further, this change can be tweaked to make it neutral, in which case you are improving the strategic decision making involved in the game (by allowing for greater versatility), without imposing a cost. Your complaint hinges on your ability to argue that this change cannot be implemented without buffing AA heroes. I believe that premise to be false, and have demonstrated repeatedly that even in its current form this change isn't a significant buff for AA (with the possible exception of one or two items becoming too strong as a result of this change).

 

Umm...there is no way this isnt a buff...even if it is only slight (at best, the jury is still out on that). THere now exists the potential for AA heroes to dish out significantly more damage. You wouldnt disagree with that statement would you? So.... you say that in order to do this, other things must be sacrificed. I assume you mean some survivability....however, I must have you note that the effectiveness of leach is increased the faster you attack. The faster you kill, the less damage you stand to incur. I really dont think you have to sacrifice as much as you seem to think to achieve attack speeds above, or even well above the previous cap. "Sacrificing" other items is a misleading statement...while you may need more AS items...you are not necessarily sacrificing anything to use them, especially if you look at the bigger picture. EVEN if it can be shown that one must sacrifice significant amounts of survivability towards this end...there are situations in which ALL OUT DPS is the better option anyway, and at the very least, in these instances AA heroes are buffed.

 

All that aside, even if this turns out to be only a slight buff to AA heroes...it is still a poor way to go about addressing a few "underwhelming" items and skills. If it can be tweaked so that the net change to AA heroes is neutral...then fine...but I wont just take your word for it. Moreover, there was nothing conclusive about our discussion re: HoM. I would have argued that it was fine how it was.

 

 

I'm sorry you don't remember that--maybe you left the discussion early? I don't remember you raising any of these objections when RNG said he was going to increase the weapon speed cap at the end of that discussion. Once again, HoM is not the only item impacted by having an easily achieved weapon speed cap. Other examples include: Lethal Barb, Fury (or whatever the active offensive talent is called), Tosh's r, Cain's e, +14% weapon speed talent, and other +weapon speed items. If attack speed can be maximized without having to sacrifice something else in your build (e.g. buying an attack speed item instead of an item that increase your weapon damage or provides some other benefit not related to weapon speed), then players don't have to make any strategic decisions related to weapon speed. Instead, any reasonable AA build will maximize attack speed by default. Allowing for tradeoffs related to attack speed provides for greater variety in the game.

 

I dont object to increasing variety within viable end game builds...I would contest the idea this variety was in anyway a salient concern, and I strongly object to the way in which it was implemented. Any change that "fixes" something by "breaking" something else...to put it crudely...is a bad change.

 

 

Those three items together cost almost 15k. Also, as I pointed out, they don't consistently break the old cap on their own (and when they do break it, it isn't by much). Further, I performed those tests using a level 18 AGI hero, meaning that at lower levels those items would be unlikely to break the old attack speed cap. I've also pointed out multiple times that this change could be tweaked (or specific items could be tweaked) to keep things balanced...

 

I dont care how much they cost....obviously we are discussing the potency of the new end game AA hero. It's sidestepping the issue. 3 items breaking the old attack speed cap at level 18, is still only 3 items breaking the cap. One or two more AS items, including ones typically found on AA heroes anyway (pyre, timesplitter) and we are talking about some scary shap.

 

My statement was conditional and making the assumption that versatility could be increase without buffing AA heroes, which, I believe, is a reasonable assumption..

Seems clear to me. I'm sorry I'm having a hard time understanding your logic...

 

I really think you are trying hard to consider this not a buff to AA heroes.

 

 

EDIT:

 

This whole thing is rather absurd given that none of us seem to know exactly why Ekco changed the cap. The potential reasons mentioned in this thread are all bad as far as I am concerned, but I am open to, and indeed, hoping for there to something else that would properly justify the change. If the cap was raised because AA heroes needed a buff, and this could somehow be justified itself, I would be ok with it.

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the issue is:

 

i don't think he can decrease the amount of attackspeed agi gives because i believe the value is already at the minimum - or i would imagine he woulda just done that already (ya, theres a minimum in the editor)

 

and because there is a hard limit on attackspeed on agi, he can't decrease attackspeed on items or it would nerf non-agi heroes too much.

 

atleast that was the impression i was under...

 

Why not stop agi giving attack speed and give every item that gives agi an attack speed component equal to what he wants the attack speed growth with agi to be? Also do this with growth per level and with adding points to stats

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Umm...there is no way this isnt a buff...even if it is only slight (at best, the jury is still out on that). THere now exists the potential for AA heroes to dish out significantly more damage. You wouldnt disagree with that statement would you?

 

Actually, I don't think that this is as clear as you and others believe it to be. If you an item that increases your damage per attack in order to increase your attack speed, you may not be increasing your AA DPS by much, if at all (e.g. if you buy an Arcbound instead of a Kahli Blade). So far, my tests suggest that this tradeoff is nontrivial (i.e. you aren't always better off increasing attack speed). Until you provide clear examples via in-game tests, I don't think you can say with certainty that this change has significantly increased the amount of damage that AA heroes can dish out (and even then, we may only be talking about a handful of cases).

 

So.... you say that in order to do this, other things must be sacrificed. I assume you mean some survivability....however, I must have you note that the effectiveness of leach is increased the faster you attack. The faster you kill, the less damage you stand to incur. I really dont think you have to sacrifice as much as you seem to think to achieve attack speeds above, or even well above the previous cap. "Sacrificing" other items is a misleading statement...while you may need more AS items...you are not necessarily sacrificing anything to use them, especially if you look at the bigger picture. EVEN if it can be shown that one must sacrifice significant amounts of survivability towards this end...there are situations in which ALL OUT DPS is the better option anyway, and at the very least, in these instances AA heroes are buffed.

 

I'm not only talking about survivability, I'm also talking about giving up items that increase damage per attack or other forms of offensive utility. As I stated above, it isn't clear that maximizing attack speed will always maximize DPS.

 

All that aside, even if this turns out to be only a slight buff to AA heroes...it is still a poor way to go about addressing a few "underwhelming" items and skills. If it can be tweaked so that the net change to AA heroes is neutral...then fine...but I wont just take your word for it. Moreover, there was nothing conclusive about our discussion re: HoM. I would have argued that it was fine how it was.

 

Why would it be a poor way to achieve greater variety if it can be tweaked so the net change to AA heroes is neutral?

 

I dont object to increasing variety within viable end game builds...I would contest the idea this variety was in anyway a salient concern, and I strongly object to the way in which it was implemented. Any change that "fixes" something by "breaking" something else...to put it crudely...is a bad change.

 

I agree with the basic premise of your last sentence, however, evidence of anything being broken has been more or less debunked via in-game testing and what remains is no more than theorycrafting.

 

I dont care how much they cost....obviously we are discussing the potency of the new end game AA hero. It's sidestepping the issue. 3 items breaking the old attack speed cap at level 18, is still only 3 items breaking the cap. One or two more AS items, including ones typically found on AA heroes anyway (pyre, timesplitter) and we are talking about some scary shap.

 

With only those three items, we are talking about a trivial increase in damage output. I agree that if you add pyre and timesplitter, we are talking about a more significant increase in damage output, however, that's probably more specific to a single item (Lethal Barb), and wouldn't necessarily apply to builds without Lethal Barb.

 

I really think you are trying hard to consider this not a buff to AA heroes.

 

I'm only trying to be objective about this. So far, evidence based on actual in-game tests hasn't supported the argument that this change has been a significant buff to AA heroes, aside from one or two items potentially being too strong as a result of the change.

 

EDIT:

 

This whole thing is rather absurd given that none of us seem to know exactly why Ekco changed the cap. The potential reasons mentioned in this thread are all bad as far as I am concerned, but I am open to, and indeed, hoping for there to something else that would properly justify the change. If the cap was raised because AA heroes needed a buff, and this could somehow be justified itself, I would be ok with it.

 

Again, I'm not sure why variety isn't a valid reason, as long as the change can be made in a way that won't provide a significant buff to AA heroes.

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Actually, I don't think that this is as clear as you and others believe it to be. If you an item that increases your damage per attack in order to increase your attack speed, you may not be increasing your AA DPS by much, if at all (e.g. if you buy an Arcbound instead of a Kahli Blade). So far, my tests suggest that this tradeoff is nontrivial (i.e. you aren't always better off increasing attack speed). Until you provide clear examples via in-game tests, I don't think you can say with certainty that this change has significantly increased the amount of damage that AA heroes can dish out (and even then, we may only be talking about a handful of cases).

 

Yes, clearly an item that increases your attack speed does not necessarily increase your DPS in context of other choices....but lets be honest.....we can both imagine super high AS builds that dont sacrifice much, if any weapon damage.

 

I'm not only talking about survivability, I'm also talking about giving up items that increase damage per attack or other forms of offensive utility. As I stated above, it isn't clear that maximizing attack speed will always maximize DPS.

 

I have, just now, been playing around with a bunch of darpa builds. Not even using Lethal barbed, he hits max attack speed with the following build:

 

Time Splitter x2

Pyre

Force of Entropy

Darwins

Masamune

 

2x Time splitters and a pyre is enough to max attack speed on their own, Masamune will break the cap. You tell me what this build sacrifices?

 

Why would it be a poor way to achieve greater variety if it can be tweaked so the net change to AA heroes is neutral?

 

It wouldnt I suppose.....That, however, is a big If and still to be demonstrated.

 

I agree with the basic premise of your last sentence, however, evidence of anything being broken has been more or less debunked via in-game testing and what remains is no more than theorycrafting.

 

By your in game testing? What about my build above? Its a pretty standard build aside from the extra time splitter...which is hardly a burden. It gives you the IH standard amount of leach, HP, and weapon damage....but.....with ~40% more weapon speed as of the new patch.

 

With only those three items, we are talking about a trivial increase in damage output. I agree that if you add pyre and timesplitter, we are talking about a more significant increase in damage output, however, that's probably more specific to a single item (Lethal Barb), and wouldn't necessarily apply to builds without Lethal Barb.

 

Again...I reference my build above.

 

 

edit: the build includes the 15% weapon speed talent...which you would probably get anyway.

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Stalker can one shot everyone without last stand for protection. You better watch where you stand with that darpa with no health talents.

 

there is only one health talent...it provides 160 health. It is hardly worth getting and wont save you from shap. Protect requires 4 points in defense and may or may not be worth getting, but you can still get the weapon speed talent in addition to this (I was never referring to the offensive tree active).

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there is only one health talent...it provides 160 health. It is hardly worth getting and wont save you from shap. Protect requires 4 points in defense and may or may not be worth getting, but you can still get the weapon speed talent in addition to this (I was never referring to the offensive tree active).

 

I meant the defense talents but you get the point... spell resist health and the protect talent. Is it reliable enough to save you in the early game from such a devastating combo from the stalker. Ive been too disappointed in farming for 90% of the game to test it but i have been one shotted a few times with just the offense talent tree running. Basically you risk dying throughout the game by becoming a glass cannon with the attack talents.

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I played a pub today (yes a pub) and I reached near to max AS (not sure if max 1.7-1.34) with shinobi, time splitter, valor manifest full stacked and +15% from talents i didnt need pyre to get monster kills because of my insane attack speed, with over 300-340 damage

 

The biggest problem with this patch is a tosh at lvl 6, he has 3 spectres and himself, he donesnt need much to kill you, just R, Q maybe and stuns from spectres, he rape easy any agi and caster hero, and maybe "tanks" too becuase at lvl 6 who is enought tanky for 3 guys dealing 20 true damage and 1 guy dealing 40 per shot with one shot per .35 seconds?

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I meant the defense talents but you get the point... spell resist health and the protect talent. Is it reliable enough to save you in the early game from such a devastating combo from the stalker. Ive been too disappointed in farming for 90% of the game to test it but i have been one shotted a few times with just the offense talent tree running. Basically you risk dying throughout the game by becoming a glass cannon with the attack talents.

 

I think there is a place for both offensive and defensive talent builds....but...whats your point here?

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I played a pub today (yes a pub) and I reached near to max AS (not sure if max 1.7-1.34) with shinobi, time splitter, valor manifest full stacked and +15% from talents i didnt need pyre to get monster kills because of my insane attack speed, with over 300-340 damage

 

The biggest problem with this patch is a tosh at lvl 6, he has 3 spectres and himself, he donesnt need much to kill you, just R, Q maybe and stuns from spectres, he rape easy any agi and caster hero, and maybe "tanks" too becuase at lvl 6 who is enought tanky for 3 guys dealing 20 true damage and 1 guy dealing 40 per shot with one shot per .35 seconds?

 

tosh was already on the edge of being OP just from the buff to his spectres....now I would say he might become auto ban worthy. Still a bit too early to say...but that's my opinion.

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tosh was already on the edge of being OP just from the buff to his spectres....now I would say he might become auto ban worthy. Still a bit too early to say...but that's my opinion.

 

In EU we are "crying" about Tosh (me too) because he is insane even in the early game when he get the spectres, I can like the buff of spectres, now they are hard to kill with AoE, and if you focus on them with your AA, the rest ot them and Tosh will rape you. In EU ih he is banned fast if the team don't have a competent tosh player, or picked fast if they have one.

 

We have one player Ares-Dragon, a child of 14 years, he is pretty bad playing (sorry ares XD) but he can still get 7-1 (for example) in inhouse with tosh (im saying he is bad because he usually get inverse godlike with shadow or rancor, and people ask him for ih when they hadnt other player.

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I think there is a place for both offensive and defensive talent builds....but...whats your point here?

 

If you run with offense you can take out a lot of people with sustained damage, but you leave yourself susceptible to burst. If you run straight defense then you have to worry about sustained damage over time if you yourself do not have burst. In organized play you can predict it better with bans team comp etc but for random picks it becomes a coin flip as usual. Basically you cant just run one tree out there every game like before.

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This pacht has broken game, heros Darpa, nova, kerrigan, zeratul, shadow, tosh, ironhide is very OP for atacck speed, you cant tank, i dont understand admins the game really tested game?, is imposible vorpal/tychus/drake/balrog die 5 hit for nova, darpa, tosh, etc.

And now heros INT dont exist in inhouse, is normal die 2 hit, for example zeratul use Q, hero INT die.

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This pacht has broken game, heros Darpa, nova, kerrigan, zeratul, shadow, tosh, ironhide is very OP for atacck speed, you cant tank, i dont understand admins the game really tested game?, is imposible vorpal/tychus/drake/balrog die 5 hit for nova, darpa, tosh, etc.

And now heros INT dont exist in inhouse, is normal die 2 hit, for example zeratul use Q, hero INT die.

 

we did test a l lot of things for almost a month but the attack speed cap was something that was changed at the very end of the beta and we probably should have tested it longer. while it is probably to much i wouldnt say it breaks the game and we can always make changes to fix it.

 

though since the patch i have found myself getting shrapnel on just about every hero whereas before sometimes u didnt alwyas need it.

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Toxi with Chilling Artifact and his W ability should be more popular as a counter to weapon speed cap abusers. However Tosh and Cain can be a problem because only Shrapnel Cloak and stuns can prevent them from auto attacking with max speed. So maybe instead abilities which allowed hero to attack with max attack speed it just temporarily increase they attack speed by some percentage value, so they wouldn't be so good at start of the game.

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we did test a l lot of things for almost a month but the attack speed cap was something that was changed at the very end of the beta and we probably should have tested it longer. while it is probably to much i wouldnt say it breaks the game and we can always make changes to fix it.

 

though since the patch i have found myself getting shrapnel on just about every hero whereas before sometimes u didnt alwyas need it.

 

Go play Aeon, 1 line Toxi + Tosh, and you go for example 2 tank Vorpal and tychus, i look you cry for Toxi and Tosh you cant tank, omg you play Aeon really? XDDDD.

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Really... I go away for a month and ya new users think 500% WS is OP? Ok, let me break it down you for:

Patches before TimeScale was removed/changed to time, the AS cap was at roughly 315% I think? AS of well close to 4-5 hits per second were achievable, no one screamed OP, because everyone knew that late game carries were ment to rape you... Regardless if your tank, caster, etc!

Before this patch AS cap was bumped up to 350% Cap, and all items for everyone were altered, casters made stronger, with item buffs of gravity edge and argus crystal! Str heroes made heavier reaching HP's of 6K and beyond! AA heroes having Agi, that was always limited to their cap making it fairly useless: result? Tanks couldn't be kill late game, casters 1 shot carries and would have enough time to do so, as the AS of the carries was extremely slow! Basically before this patch, carries didn't fullfil their role of rape late game so to finnish it!

 

Now what changed? 500% WS increase in cap! So let me show you the maths: before patch cap for 1.7 base ATtack speed was 0.48 which is roughly two hits per second.

After patch cap is at 0.34, slightly slowed then 3 hits per second. Now with the limited amount of Time in the game reaching 4 hits per seocnd (cap of 0.25) would be managable but you would have to get masunume... With that negative buff... Comparing this to the older version this is on par... Actually a more new user friendly way of reaching hit Attack speed values.. So why are people complaining about AA heroes being OP, well it aint because of 1 extra hit per second is it? No its because crits do 1.5 true damage... And now people are actually feeling it... Tanks can hide from it, Agi heroes can't defend against it casters can only burst before they are burst... Crit damage of 1.5 is far too high, with an increase of WS, you can't to both, or you result in the current problem atm...

 

So let me explain in a simple math example:

Let's say you have 450 damage and have reached your cap.

Before patch (1.25 crit damage and 350% WS cap):

450*1.25=562.5, TD=562.5-450=112.5, do 2 hits per second a cap= total TD=231, (Was regarded underpowered)

 

After patch(1.5 Crit Damage, 500% WS):

450*1.5=675, TD=225, 3 hits per second, 225*3=675 TD

 

This is a lot, there has to be a balance between the two patches, the WS increase is a good idea, but the crit damage with true is far too steep!

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I just made post about same thing in other topic that not the 500% WS cap is the 'core' of AoS late game balance problems. Devs should consider remove unique from Khali Blade and change it into sth else as temporary workaround

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I just made post about same thing in other topic that not the 500% WS cap is the 'core' of AoS late game balance problems. Devs should consider remove unique from Khali Blade and change it into sth else as temporary workaround

 

u might as well just remove khali blade if u remove the passive. reducing crit back to 125% might be a better solution

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Toxi with Chilling Artifact and his W ability should be more popular as a counter to weapon speed cap abusers. However Tosh and Cain can be a problem because only Shrapnel Cloak and stuns can prevent them from auto attacking with max speed. So maybe instead abilities which allowed hero to attack with max attack speed it just temporarily increase they attack speed by some percentage value, so they wouldn't be so good at start of the game.

 

Tosh ult lvl 6 should be .75 flat as, lvl 11 .5 and lvl 16 .35, at least at lvl 6 tosh couldnt rape everything so easily

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The patch is....... Cant say I like it ot hate it. Since pub is always boring as usual, I come to ih., the only thing I worry about is another long testing, nerfing, fixing, etc. Once everything is finally balanced which might take another month or so.. there will be new things coming out by then, which means more testing/balancing. When will there be a whole month of Aos/Sotis game stayed totally balanced? I joined mumble beginning of summer and in just a short season there were so many big changes. First, changed from Sotis to Aos with many new stuff and heroes like Leo and Brine, then MK, Null, Summer, etc (new hereos are actually GREAT, but more things are added before these heroes were even closed to balanced first).. such as the whole new items patch. Took the whole September to fix the items and only just recently the null and mk were finally nerfed (after tournament).

 

Finally, noww there is the no teleport, wave, and new talents update. I personally like the no teleport part thats it, but have no idea why new wave and talents are added.. w/e the reason.. i just hope it wont take another month to balance things. I mean these new changes are easy as hell to adapt to.. I have no problem getting used to new things.. but I don't want to waste time on playing games that is "testing".. lets be honest here, how many IH games we played in the summer without saying "this shap OP, OP THIS, OP THAT"? The whole summer, every IH, ppl say mk, null, bio, boros, shadowmore, this item, that item, etc etc etc OPOPOP"? The tournament, there was huge debate of whether to ban this ban that... and then there is the egon op opopopop... new things kept adding before things are balanced (or finally balanced, but new big change right away, so we never get to enjoy the balance). You have to keep in mind.. adding new items or simple no teleport scroll, or wave change will make certain hero becoming too strong or too weak. There will just be endless balancing. I'm sure you guys already see a bunch of thread by the pubbers complaing this op, that op.... let the nerf begin!

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The patch is....... Cant say I like it ot hate it. Since pub is always boring as usual, I come to ih., the only thing I worry about is another long testing, nerfing, fixing, etc. Once everything is finally balanced which might take another month or so.. there will be new things coming out by then, which means more testing/balancing. When will there be a whole month of Aos/Sotis game stayed totally balanced? I joined mumble beginning of summer and in just a short season there were so many big changes. First, changed from Sotis to Aos with many new stuff and heroes like Leo and Brine, then MK, Null, Summer, etc (new hereos are actually GREAT, but more things are added before these heroes were even closed to balanced first).. such as the whole new items patch. Took the whole September to fix the items and only just recently the null and mk were finally nerfed (after tournament).

 

Finally, noww there is the no teleport, wave, and new talents update. I personally like the no teleport part thats it, but have no idea why new wave and talents are added.. w/e the reason.. i just hope it wont take another month to balance things. I mean these new changes are easy as hell to adapt to.. I have no problem getting used to new things.. but I don't want to waste time on playing games that is "testing".. lets be honest here, how many IH games we played in the summer without saying "this shap OP, OP THIS, OP THAT"? The whole summer, every IH, ppl say mk, null, bio, boros, shadowmore, this item, that item, etc etc etc OPOPOP"? The tournament, there was huge debate of whether to ban this ban that... and then there is the egon op opopopop... new things kept adding before things are balanced (or finally balanced, but new big change right away, so we never get to enjoy the balance). You have to keep in mind.. adding new items or simple no teleport scroll, or wave change will make certain hero becoming too strong or too weak. There will just be endless balancing. I'm sure you guys already see a bunch of thread by the pubbers complaing this op, that op.... let the nerf begin!

 

+1

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