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JustZerO

500% Weapon Speed cap

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Just so you know, I did include Masamune in my original post. Masamune boosts your cap, while lethal barbed + khali blade keeps you up there the whole time.

 

I thought the attack speed cap was increased to make it harder to max out on attack speed as quickly as we do.

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Honestly, we didn't really test the Weapon Speed Cap during beta. We just said, that was changed? Oh okay. Then we proceeded to test pretty much everything else.

 

We tested it some, but not extensively. I played at least two games as Tosh with RNG as a spectator and I don't think we exposed anything OP about the increase attack speed cap (also, in both games I bought stun baton and it didn't permastun anyone).

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Just so you know, I did include Masamune in my original post. Masamune boosts your cap, while lethal barbed + khali blade keeps you up there the whole time.

 

Yeah, you did--I had forgotten when I wrote my follow-up post. However, Lethal Barb and Khali aren't enough to reach the cap (or even get that close) unless you have other items that also increase your attack speed (Aggressor's Guise would be one of those items, since it gives AGI).

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In order to permastun, you would have to attack 8 times per second. I don't know if/think that is possible.

 

Well, I was attacking around 4 times a second with those three items.

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In order to permastun, you would have to attack 8 times per second. I don't know if/think that is possible.

 

Well, I was attacking around 4 times a second with those three items.

 

Interesting. Just those three items?

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In order to permastun, you would have to attack 8 times per second. I don't know if/think that is possible.

 

Well, I was attacking around 4 times a second with those three items.

 

Yes but if you are stunning for 0.5 seconds every 1 second, the enemy being unable to take action 50% of the time is still effectively permastunned and will still easily die unless he has a blink. I remember the old Tosh and blinking out of his stun that was very similar to a 4 attacks per second w/stun baton experience, except it didn't last as long as Tosh kept auto attacking you, so you could actually approach Tosh if his specters weren't up and he had already wasted it and you blinked out. With this same kind of stun being given to Tosh/Cain's auto attack, it's too strong for an early game hero to be doing it. Late game is a different story maybe but a level 6 or 7 tosh attacking at +500% attack speed with the current item set is a bit insane, especially when you consider that Tosh's specters were substantially buffed on top of this and can easily provide additional stun on top of what his auto attack is dishing out.

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I thought the attack speed cap was increased to make it harder to max out on attack speed as quickly as we do.

 

What...that makes no sense at all. Increasing the AS cap is nothing more than a random buff to AA heroes. If the problem was reaching high attack speeds too easily...then make it harder to stack AS, or make each % of AS less effective. I mean...we can still reach attack speeds equal to the old cap just as easily..lol....now we can just go further. WAT the ???

 

I really cant imagine this being ekco's reasoning...it's tantamount to idiocy.

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Because of the way the system works, ekco cannot make weapon speed stacking less effective.

 

 

Interesting. Just those three items?

 

Yes sir. Of course I could be wrong, but test it out.

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Because of the way the system works, ekco cannot make weapon speed stacking less effective.

 

Doesnt make that reasoning any more sensible rofl

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Yes but if you are stunning for 0.5 seconds every 1 second, the enemy being unable to take action 50% of the time is still effectively permastunned and will still easily die unless he has a blink. I remember the old Tosh and blinking out of his stun that was very similar to a 4 attacks per second w/stun baton experience, except it didn't last as long as Tosh kept auto attacking you, so you could actually approach Tosh if his specters weren't up and he had already wasted it and you blinked out. With this same kind of stun being given to Tosh/Cain's auto attack, it's too strong for an early game hero to be doing it. Late game is a different story maybe but a level 6 or 7 tosh attacking at +500% attack speed with the current item set is a bit insane, especially when you consider that Tosh's specters were substantially buffed on top of this and can easily provide additional stun on top of what his auto attack is dishing out.

 

Like I said in my first post in this thread, if one or two items (or one or two heroes) become too strong as a result of the change, they can be adjusted accordingly.

 

 

What...that makes no sense at all. Increasing the AS cap is nothing more than a random buff to AA heroes. If the problem was reaching high attack speeds too easily...then make it harder to stack AS, or make each % of AS less effective. I mean...we can still reach attack speeds equal to the old cap just as easily..lol....now we can just go further. WAT the ???

 

I really cant imagine this being ekco's reasoning...it's tantamount to idiocy.

 

Attack speed scaling or the amount of attack speed granted by items can still be changed if AA heroes are now too strong as a result of this change. I don't think it's idiocy to make it harder to reach the attack speed cap...

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Its like....increasing your child's weekly allowance because they were spending it too quickly...."Here son, have some more money so you dont run out so easily"

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Attack speed scaling or the amount of attack speed granted by items can still be changed if AA heroes are now too strong as a result of this change. I don't think it's idiocy to make it harder to reach the attack speed cap...

 

The reasoning, assuming Adamantium was accurate...is idiotic. If it was too easy for heroes to reach the old attack speed cap, increasing the cap doesnt make it any harder to reach what was the old cap...it doesnt fix anything...is this not obvious?

 

Am i totally missing something here?

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Yes sir. Of course I could be wrong, but test it out.

 

Okay, I tested that item build with Nova and Darpa.

 

For Nova, that item build allows Nova to reach 0.47 attack speed (1.75-1.28), which is +372% attack speed (i.e. just over the previous cap, which would have maximized her attack speed at 0.50). In other words, this item build is slightly better as a result of the increased cap. Note that in this I didn't account for the timescale bonus because it applies in both cases--just divide the attack speed by 1.25 to get the timescale-increased attack speed: 0.38 and 0.40, respectively. Unless one of the items isn't working as intended, that's not enough to attack four times per second.

 

For Darpa, that item build gives him 0.44 attack speed (1.70-1.26), which is +386% attack speed (again, just over the old cap, which would have maximized his attack speed at 0.49). Again, this item is slightly better because of the increased cap. Timescale bonus yields attack speeds of 0.35 and 0.39, respectively. While this is closer to four attacks per second, it's still not enough (although Darpa's w will occasionally allow him to essentially have four attacks per second).

 

Also, note that these attack speeds were not constant. A good deal of the time, both heroes attacked at significantly lower attack speeds because they don't crit with every attack (meaning Lethal Barb doesn't always proc). In summary, yes, the increased cap does improve the damage output of this build, but not by much.

 

EDIT: Masamune gives +15% timescale, so I should have divided by 1.15 instead of 1.25. This doesn't change the conclusions I made in my post (if anything, it reinforces them).

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The reasoning, assuming Adamantium was accurate...is idiotic. If it was too easy for heroes to reach the old attack speed cap, increasing the cap doesnt make it any harder to reach what was the old cap...it doesnt fix anything...is this not obvious?

 

Am i totally missing something here?

 

i think that if RNG had just decreased the amount of Attack speed items, talants, and agi gave would have fixed the problem... but what do i know

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The reasoning, assuming Adamantium was accurate...is idiotic. If it was too easy for heroes to reach the old attack speed cap, increasing the cap doesnt make it any harder to reach what was the old cap...it doesnt fix anything...is this not obvious?

 

Am i totally missing something here?

 

It increases the utility of some items and abilities that had very limited utility before the change. Of course increasing the cap doesn't make it harder to reach the old cap, but I think that the objective was to allow for greater flexibility in builds by allowing for builds focused on further increasing attack speed. I agree that this could have been accomplished in different ways, but the objective behind the change itself (making it harder to reach max weapon speed) was accomplished by raising the cap.

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the issue is:

 

i don't think he can decrease the amount of attackspeed agi gives because i believe the value is already at the minimum - or i would imagine he woulda just done that already (ya, theres a minimum in the editor)

 

and because there is a hard limit on attackspeed on agi, he can't decrease attackspeed on items or it would nerf non-agi heroes too much.

 

atleast that was the impression i was under...

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It increases the utility of some items and abilities that had very limited utility before the change.

 

As I said earlier in this thread...change the items...dont globally buff the late game potential of all heroes just to improve the utility of Hand of bloody Mengsk.

 

Of course increasing the cap doesn't make it harder to reach the old cap, but I think that the objective was to allow for greater flexibility in builds by allowing for builds focused on further increasing attack speed.

 

What? Where did this come from? Was anyone complaining about the versatility of viable AA builds? Increasing the max attack speed cap would be an appropriate change only if AA heroes were underpowered.

 

I agree that this could have been accomplished in different ways, but the objective behind the change itself (making it harder to reach max weapon speed) was accomplished by raising the cap.

 

Yes, increasing the cap makes it harder to reach the cap. Also, the sky is blue and water is wet. I think you misspoke here....as i said before...none of this makes any sense. Why is a higher cap even desirable? Well...you sort of addressed this in the first part of your post...but we've already talked about that.

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I was playing Darpa and Im 98% sure I reached the cap. Maybe as you said I had near to max but not max (?)

 

With talents u got 1.35. Cap is 1.36

 

U FAIL.

 

Forgetting that joke.

 

Increased Att speed cap is a buff for lategame where AA shines always ( If average player).

 

Maybe a buff for early levels in initial Att speed. A penalty stacking Att speed items or smthing like that could sound better. Don't know.

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As I said earlier in this thread...change the items...dont globally buff the late game potential of all heroes just to improve the utility of Hand of bloody Mengsk.

 

As I have said earlier in this thread, this isn't necessarily a significant buff to the late game potential of all heroes, as maximizing attack speed beyond the cap will require tradeoffs in your build. Also, if it increases the late game potential of ALL heroes, why is it a problem? Perhaps you meant to say AA heroes?

 

What? Where did this come from? Was anyone complaining about the versatility of viable AA builds? Increasing the max attack speed cap would be an appropriate change only if AA heroes were underpowered.

 

This came from a discussion of underutilitized items. We were asked which items weren't being used, and one common theme was that attack speed bonuses often weren't providing much value. If maximizing attack speed beyond the previous cap comes with a cost (e.g. forgoing other useful items), then increasing the cap doesn't buff all AA heroes. That is, versatility can be increased without making all AA heroes overpowered. Even if people weren't complaining about versatility in AA builds, I don't see the harm in increasing versatility...

 

Yes, increasing the cap makes it harder to reach the cap. Also, the sky is blue and water is wet. I think you misspoke here....as i said before...none of this makes any sense. Why is a higher cap even desirable? Well...you sort of addressed this in the first part of your post...but we've already talked about that.

 

How does it not make sense? As you said, it's as clear as water being wet...

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I don't really feel the difference with the new attack speed cap. I play mostly In House games in NA server.

 

Here is my item suggestions when against heavy AA hero team:

 

:ShrapnelCloak: :ShrapnelCloak: :ShrapnelCloak: :ShrapnelCloak: :ShrapnelCloak: :ShrapnelCloak:

 

I hope it helps you a little bit.

Sorry, but all actives have shared CDs.... You can have in total 5 shrapnels(1 for each hero), but not all heroes benefit from it.

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As I have said earlier in this thread, this isn't necessarily a significant buff to the late game potential of all heroes, as maximizing attack speed beyond the cap will require tradeoffs in your build. Also, if it increases the late game potential of ALL heroes, why is it a problem? Perhaps you meant to say AA heroes?

 

Yes all AA heroes...of course. Pardon the omission.

 

You would agree that increasing the attack speed cap cant be anything other than a buff would you not? You could make the incredibly tenuous argument that it is a neutral change...but yeah...probably wouldnt be a good idea. My point stands. Why buff AA heroes globally, just to help out one or two "underused" items?

 

 

This came from a discussion of underutilitized items. We were asked which items weren't being used, and one common theme was that attack speed bonuses often weren't providing much value. If maximizing attack speed beyond the previous cap comes with a cost (e.g. forgoing other useful items), then increasing the cap doesn't buff all AA heroes. That is, versatility can be increased without making all AA heroes overpowered. Even if people weren't complaining about versatility in AA builds, I don't see the harm in increasing versatility...

 

I was a very involved participant in that discussion...and I am fairly confident that the idea of AS bonuses not providing enough value was not a part of it, at least not a salient one. Most of the discussion surrounded HoM, and the consensus was that it was inferior to Darwins as a leach item. I really dont think anyone would say AS bonuses are currently undervalued. A satisfactory amount of AS is always a fundamental aspect of any good AA build.

 

I dont really accept your idea that stacking more attack speed comes at a significant cost...I mean...didnt you just find that three items (Lethal, Masamune, Khali) break the old cap on their own? Consider that Time Splitter and Pyre are already staple AA items...

 

The harm is buffing AA heroes...when they didnt need it. Crit just got a whopping buff...now this?

 

How does it not make sense? As you said, it's as clear as water being wet...

 

It doesnt make sense as a justification.

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Like I said in my first post in this thread, if one or two items (or one or two heroes) become too strong as a result of the change, they can be adjusted accordingly.

 

 

 

 

Attack speed scaling or the amount of attack speed granted by items can still be changed if AA heroes are now too strong as a result of this change. I don't think it's idiocy to make it harder to reach the attack speed cap...

 

Hand of Mengsk in combination with the active attack speed talent (fury I believe) allows you to activate +110% attack speed + high leech (with talent + HOM is 33% leech on top of this attack speed) on a regular basis very early game, this combo is substantially better than lethal barb (20% crit + some agi + 100% attack speed on crit proc) but is available much, much earlier in the game.

 

No doubt things will be adjusted, but in my experiences "hot fixes" are rare and don't happen except in the most extreme of cases, generally requiring it actually be a bug rather than something being too strong. Also I tried to beta several times, but every time I did people were just playing League or Dota.

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Or just pick Ironhide Cain or Tosh and you can have the new max attack speed very early game (significant buff to both heroes since you can get a stun baton very early).

 

100% respect for Tosh, he is a cool guy, but now with the new attack speed cap his ultimate is a joke, specially in the lvl 6, when he will has 3 spectres and you will lol at the fast dead

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Yes all AA heroes...of course. Pardon the omission.

 

You would agree that increasing the attack speed cap cant be anything other than a buff would you not? You could make the incredibly tenuous argument that it is a neutral change...but yeah...probably wouldnt be a good idea. My point stands. Why buff AA heroes globally, just to help out one or two "underused" items?

 

I've already shown multiple times (in this thread) that going significantly beyond the previous cap does require you to sacrifice other items in your build. While this change, as currently implemented, may provide a slight buff for AA heroes, I don't think you can convincingly argue that this is a significant buff for all AA heroes. Further, this change can be tweaked to make it neutral, in which case you are improving the strategic decision making involved in the game (by allowing for greater versatility), without imposing a cost. Your complaint hinges on your ability to argue that this change cannot be implemented without buffing AA heroes. I believe that premise to be false, and have demonstrated repeatedly that even in its current form this change isn't a significant buff for AA (with the possible exception of one or two items becoming too strong as a result of this change).

 

I was a very involved participant in that discussion...and I am fairly confident that the idea of AS bonuses not providing enough value was not a part of it, at least not a salient one. Most of the discussion surrounded HoM, and the consensus was that it was inferior to Darwins as a leach item. I really dont think anyone would say AS bonuses are currently undervalued. A satisfactory amount of AS is always a fundamental aspect of any good AA build.

 

I'm sorry you don't remember that--maybe you left the discussion early? I don't remember you raising any of these objections when RNG said he was going to increase the weapon speed cap at the end of that discussion. Once again, HoM is not the only item impacted by having an easily achieved weapon speed cap. Other examples include: Lethal Barb, Fury (or whatever the active offensive talent is called), Tosh's r, Cain's e, +14% weapon speed talent, and other +weapon speed items. If attack speed can be maximized without having to sacrifice something else in your build (e.g. buying an attack speed item instead of an item that increase your weapon damage or provides some other benefit not related to weapon speed), then players don't have to make any strategic decisions related to weapon speed. Instead, any reasonable AA build will maximize attack speed by default. Allowing for tradeoffs related to attack speed provides for greater variety in the game.

 

I dont really accept your idea that stacking more attack speed comes at a significant cost...I mean...didnt you just find that three items (Lethal, Masamune, Khali) break the old cap on their own? Consider that Time Splitter and Pyre are already staple AA items...

 

Those three items together cost almost 15k. Also, as I pointed out, they don't consistently break the old cap on their own (and when they do break it, it isn't by much). Further, I performed those tests using a level 18 AGI hero, meaning that at lower levels those items would be unlikely to break the old attack speed cap. I've also pointed out multiple times that this change could be tweaked (or specific items could be tweaked) to keep things balanced...

 

The harm is buffing AA heroes...when they didnt need it. Crit just got a whopping buff...now this?

 

My statement was conditional and making the assumption that versatility could be increase without buffing AA heroes, which, I believe, is a reasonable assumption..

 

It doesnt make sense as a justification.

 

Seems clear to me. I'm sorry I'm having a hard time understanding your logic...

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